1 1 STATE OF NEW JERSEY 2 CASINO CONTROL COMMISSION 3 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 4 5 PUBLIC MEETING NO. 06-07-19 6 7 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 8 9 Wednesday, July 19, 2006 10 Atlantic City Commission Offices 11 Joseph P. Lordi Public Meeting Room - First Floor 12 Tennessee Avenue and Boardwalk 13 Atlantic City, New Jersey 08401 14 10:35 a.m. to 11:05 a.m. 15 16 17 Certified Shorthand Reporter: Darlene Sillitoe 18 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 19 20 CIPOLLONI & ASSOCIATES, INC. 21 CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTERS 22 1125 ATLANTIC AVENUE, SUITE 416 23 ATLANTIC CITY, NEW JERSEY 08401 24 (609) 348-9190 25 www.cipolloni-associates.com 2 1 B E F O R E : 2 CASINO CONTROL COMMISSION: LINDA M. KASSEKERT, CHAIR 3 RALPH G. FRULIO, VICE CHAIR MICHAEL C. EPPS, COMMISSIONER 4 MICHAEL A. FEDORKO, COMMISSIOENR WILLIAM T. SOMMELING, COMMISSIONER 5 PRESENT FOR THE CASINO CONTROL COMMISSION: 6 DARYL W. NANCE, ADMINISTRATIVE ANALYST DANIEL J. HENEGHAN, PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICER 7 OFFICE OF THE GENERAL COUNSEL: 8 DIANNA W. FAUNTLEROY, GENERAL COUNSEL/EXECUTIVE SECRETARY 9 STEVEN M. INGIS, ASSISTANT GENERAL COUNSEL TERESA M. NAGENGAST, SENIOR COUNSEL 10 E. DENNIS KELL, ASSISTANT GENERAL COUNSEL BERNADETTE T. FRIGEN, PROGRAM SUPERVISOR 11 DIVISION OF LICENSING: 12 JOHN BOWMAN, MANAGER SHARON HAND, MANAGER 13 DIVISION OF GAMING ENFORCEMENT: 14 MITCHELL SCHWEFEL, DEPUTY DIRECTOR 15 ASSISTANT ATTORNEYS GENERAL GARY EHRLICH, ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL 16 DEPUTY ATTORNEYS GENERAL 17 JAMES ARMSTRONG, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL CHARLES F. KIMMEL, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 A P P E A R A N C E S : 2 ITEM NO. 6 TERESA NAGENGAST, SENIOR COUNSEL MITCHELL SCHWEFEL, DEPUTY 3 ATTORNEY GENERAL HOBBIE, CORRIGAN, BERTUCIO & TACHJY, PC 4 BY: MICHAEL R. HOBBIE, ESQ. FOR: JOHN ROSENDAHL 5 ITEM NO. 9 E. DENNIS KELL, ASSISTANT GENERAL COUNSEL 6 CHARLES F.KIMMEL, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL LUTHER ANDERSON,ESQ. 7 FOR: MARINA ASSOCITES, ET AL 8 ITEM NO. 10 STEVEN M. INGIS, ASSISTANT GENERAL COUNSEL 9 GARY EHRLICH, ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL COOPER LEVENSON 10 BY: LLOYD LEVENSON, ESQ. FOR: PALTRONICS, INC. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 AGENDA PUBLIC MEETING NO. 06-07-19 2 JULY 19, 2006, 10:35 a.m. 3 ITEM PAGE VOTE 4 1 Ratification of the minutes of 8 9 June 21, 2006 5 2 Applications for employee and casino 9 9 service industry licenses 6 3 Stipulations of settlementand consent agreements 7 a) Antwan L. Henderson (05-0508-EA) 11 14 b) Keith E. Boyer (05-0662-ER) 11 14 8 c) Jacob L. Franchetti (06-0176-ER) 11 14 d) Victor E. Ortiz (05-0078-ER) 11 14 9 e) Carla D. Pittman (05-0699-ER) 11 14 f) Tina M. Doughty a/k/a 11 14 10 Tina M. Hickey (06-0268-EA) g) Lisa Rosenthal (05-0013-EA) 11 14 11 h) Gregory W. Demari (05-0197-ER) 11 14 i) Maria C. Santiago-Parraga 11 14 12 (06-0171-ER) j) Charles M. Laster (06-0064-RC) 11 14 13 k) Tommy T. Sharrow (06-0002-ER) 11 14 l) Richard P. Taylor (06-0003-ER) 11 14 14 4 Petition of Anthony L. Stephens 14 adj for early reapplication 15 5 Application for suspension in State v. Krystal C. Johnson 16 16 16 6 Petition of Division of Gaming 17 30 Enforcement to grant testimonial 17 immunity in the matter of investigation of Interstate Industrial Corporation, 18 Interstate Drywall Corporation, Frank DiTommaso and Peter DiTommaso 19 (06-0339-MI) 7 Petition of Trump Taj Mahal Associates, 30 31 20 LLC, Trump Plaza Associates, LLC, and Trump Marina Associates, LLC, for the 21 issuance of a temporary casino key employee license to Gary Ng pursuant 22 to NJSA 5:12-89(e) and to permit him pursuant to NJAC 19:43-2.6 to assume 23 the duties and exercise the powers of Senior Vice President of Asian Player 24 Development without first having been found qualified 25 5 1 AGENDA CONTINUED PUBLIC MEETING NO. 06-07-19 2 JULY 19, 2006, 10:35 a.m. 3 ITEM PAGE VOTE 4 8 Proposed publication and temporary 32 33 adoption of amendments to NJAC 19:45-1.40, 5 1.41, 142, 1.43 (Slot machine meter readings) 9 Petition of Marina Associates, 33 36 6 Atlantic City Showboat, Inc., Boardwalk Regency Corporation and Bally's Park 7 Place, Inc., for a temporary waiver of the requirements of NJAC 19:45-1.42(o) (PRN 1950614) 8 10 Stipluation of settlement in the matter 36 38 of the application of Paltronics, Inc., 9 for a casino service industry license application (06-0369-SI) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 6 1 E X H I B I T S : 2 ITEM NO. 1 DESCRIPTION PAGE 3 4 EL-1 Remand for hearings 17 license 9 applications 5 EL-2 Grant 11 licenses 11 6 Remand for hearing the CSI license 9 7 application of Cache, Inc., (renewal) 8 Remand for a hearing the CSI license 10 appliation of Paltronics, Inc., and 9 the qualifications of Angelo Palmisano and Terry Trobiani 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 (Exhibits retained by Commission.) 25 7 1 (Public Meeting 06-07-19 was commenced at 2 10:35 a.m.) 3 MR. NANCE: I'd like to read an opening 4 statement: 5 This is to advise the general public that in 6 compliance with Chapter 231 of the Public Laws of 7 1975 entitled the "Open Public Meetings Act," the 8 New Jersey Casino Control Commission on October 9 13th, 2005, filed with the Secretary of State at the 10 State House in Trenton an annual meeting schedule. 11 On October the 14th, copies were mailed to the Press 12 of Atlantic City, the Newark Star Ledger, and the 13 office of the clerk of Atlantic City. 14 Members of the press will be permitted to 15 take photographs, and we would ask that this be done 16 in a manner which is not disruptive or distracting 17 to the Commission. 18 The use of cellular telephones in the public 19 meeting room while the Commission is in session is 20 prohibited. 21 Any members of the public who wish to 22 address the Commission will be given the opportunity 23 to do so before the Commission adjourns for the day. 24 Please stand for the pledge of allegiance. 25 (The Pledge of Allegiance was recited.) 8 ITEM NO. 1 1 MR. NANCE: Good morning. 2 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Good morning. 3 MR. NANCE: Good morning. 4 The matters discussed in closed session 5 were: Employee and enterprise license matters. 6 The Commissioners approved the June 21, 7 2006, closed session meetings. 8 Litigation update regarding Warren Lackland 9 and Lewis M. Springer, Jr. versus State of New 10 Jersey, CCC. 11 Appeal in applications of Instate Drywall 12 Corporation, et al. 13 Gloria Ford versus State of New Jersey, 14 Casino Control Commission, et al. 15 And Tyron J. Floyd versus the Casino Control 16 Commission and the Sands Hotel Casino. 17 Item No. 1, ratification of the minutes of 18 June 21st, 2006, and the special meeting of June 19 30th, 2006. 20 COMMISSIONER SOMMELING: Move to approve. 21 COMMISSIONER FEDORKO: Second. 22 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Motion is made and 23 seconded. All those in favor? 24 (Ayes.) 25 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Opposed? 9 ITEM NO. 2 1 (No response.) 2 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion carries. 3 MR. NANCE: Item No. 2, application for 4 employee and casino service industry licenses. 5 This agenda item will be entered as Exhibit 6 List 1 and 2. 7 Exhibit List 1 consists of 17 applications 8 for initial and/or renewal of casino key and/or 9 casino employee licenses. 10 The Division as objected to licensure. 11 VICE CHAIR FRULIO: Motion to remand for 12 hearing. 13 COMMISSIONER FEDORKO: Second. 14 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion has been made 15 and seconded. All in favor? 16 (Ayes.) 17 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Opposed? 18 (No response.) 19 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion carries. 20 MR. NANCE: For consideration is the casino 21 service industry license renewal application of 22 Cache. 23 The Division has objected to this hearing. 24 VICE CHAIR FRULIO: Motion to remand for a 25 hearing. 10 ITEM NO. 2 1 COMMISSIONER FEDORKO: Second. 2 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion has been made 3 and seconded. All in favor? 4 (Ayes.) 5 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Opposed? 6 (No response.) 7 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion carries. 8 MR. NANCE: For consideration is the casino 9 service industry license application pursuant to 10 NJSA 5:12-92(a) for Paltronics, Inc. 11 The Division has recommended that this 12 application be granted subject to certain 13 conditions. 14 VICE CHAIR FRULIO: Motion to remand for a 15 hearing, including the qualification of Angelo 16 Palmisano and Terry Trobiani. 17 COMMISSIONER FEDORKO: Second. 18 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion has been made 19 and seconded. All those in favor? 20 (Ayes.) 21 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Opposed? 22 (No response.) 23 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion carries. 24 MR. NANCE: Exhibit List 2 consists of 11 25 applications for initial and/or renewal of casino 11 ITEM NO. 3 1 key and casino key employee licenses. 2 Staff and Division have recommended that 3 these licenses be granted. 4 VICE CHAIR FRULIO: Motion to grant license 5 applications. 6 COMMISSIONER FEDORKO: Second. 7 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion has been made 8 and seconded. All in favor? 9 (Ayes.) 10 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Opposed? 11 (No response.) 12 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion carries. 13 MR. NANCE: Item No. 3, stipulations of 14 settlement and consent agreement. 15 When I call your name, please come forward, 16 stand behind this middle table, spreading across the 17 room so that you may be seen: Antwan Henderson, 18 Keith Boyer, Jacob Franchetti, Victor Ortiz, Carla 19 Pittman, Tina Doughty, Lisa Rosenthal, Gregory 20 Demari, Maria Parraga, Charles Laster, Tommy 21 Sharrow, and Richard Taylor. 22 CHAIR KASSEKERT: All right. Has everyone 23 whose name been called come forward at this point? 24 Sir, you can remain. Are you -- 25 Okay. I'm going to ask that each of you 12 ITEM NO. 3 1 state your name for the record, beginning with you, 2 sir? 3 MR. BOYER: Keith Boyer. 4 MS. DOUGHTY: Tina Doughty. 5 MR. FRANCHETTI: Jacob Franchetti. 6 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Sir? 7 MR. ROSENTHAL: Richard Rosenthal. 8 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Okay. Are you one of the 9 stipulations, sir? 10 MR. ROSENTHAL: Yes, I believe I am. 11 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Okay. Very good. All 12 right. 13 Are you -- we have a Lisa Rosenthal. 14 MR. ROSENTHAL: I'm not Lisa. I'm Lisa's 15 father. 16 CHAIR KASSEKERT: You're Lisa's father. 17 Okay. 18 MR. ROSENTHAL: Lisa's not here. 19 CHAIR KASSEKERT: You can have a seat. In a 20 moment we are going to have a vote -- or are you 21 representing her? Are you an attorney or -- 22 MR. ROSENTHAL: Yes and no. 23 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Yes and no? Okay. 24 MR. ROSENTHAL: Lisa is in Las Vegas. In 25 the event there were any questions to answer in her 13 ITEM NO. 3 1 behalf, I'd be able to ask -- answer those 2 questions. If not, I'd request an adjournment to 3 bring her back from Las Vegas. 4 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Okay. Well, is she in 5 agreement with the settlement that she entered into? 6 MR. ROSENTHAL: Yes. 7 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Okay. Fine. 8 In a moment we're going to vote on the 9 stipulations which you've agreed to with the 10 Division of Gaming Enforcement. I'm going to ask at 11 this point if any of you wish to be heard in your 12 matter. You don't have to say anything if you don't 13 want to. 14 Does anyone wish to be heard? Okay. 15 We'll hear from the Division. Mr. 16 Armstrong? 17 MR. ARMSTRONG: Chair, James Armstrong on 18 behalf of the Division. We ask that the 19 stipulations of settlement be approved. 20 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Thank you. 21 Any questions? 22 COMMISSIONER FEDORKO: No questions. 23 COMMISSIONER SOMMELING: Move to approve the 24 stipulations. 25 COMMISSIONER EPPS: Second. 14 ITEM NO. 4 1 HAIR KASSEKERT: The motion has been made 2 and seconded. All those in favor? 3 (Ayes.) 4 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Opposed? 5 (No response.) 6 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion carries. 7 Thank you very much for coming. Good luck. 8 FROM THE FLOOR: Thank you. 9 MR. NANCE: Item No. 4, petition of Anthony 10 L. Stephens for early reapplication. 11 Miss Frigen? 12 MS. FRIGEN: Let me ask whether Mr. Stephens 13 is present or represented today in the meeting room? 14 I didn't see him. 15 For your consideration is his petition in 16 which he seeks permission to obtain noncredential 17 hotel employment early. 18 The Division has interposed no objection to 19 this petition. If the Commission decides to grant 20 it, the Staff has recommended that it do so 21 conditioned upon Mr. Stephens signing two wage 22 executions addressing financial debts. 23 CHAIR KASSEKERT: And I assume that was 24 discussed with him because he's not here. 25 MS. FRIGEN: Actually, no. Because normally 15 ITEM NO. 4 1 that is something that we would do at the time of 2 the meeting, but he is not here. 3 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Okay. 4 MS. FRIGEN: So if you'd like, we can 5 adjourn it two weeks -- or next time we meet. Two 6 weeks? Yeah. And we could reach out to him and see 7 if we can get him in here. He may just be running 8 late, I'm not sure. But he is not here. 9 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Mr. Armstrong, do you have 10 any preference? 11 MR. ARMSTRONG: Chair, Commissioners, you 12 have our letter of July 9th we have no objection to 13 adjourning this matter. 14 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Adjourn it. Yeah. Let 15 me -- 16 COMMISSIONER EPPS: I move that we carry 17 this for two weeks. 18 COMMISSIONER SOMMELING: Second. 19 COMMISSIONER FEDORKO: Second. 20 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion has been made 21 and seconded. All those in favor? 22 (Ayes.) 23 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Opposed? 24 (No response.) 25 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion carries. 16 ITEM NO. 5 1 We'll carry this until the next meeting so 2 we can talk to him. 3 MS. FRIGEN: Okay. 4 MR. NANCE: Item No. 5, application for 5 suspension in State versus Krystal C. Johnson. 6 Miss Frigen? 7 MS. FRIGEN: Before we hear from the 8 Division, let me ask whether Miss Johnson is present 9 or represented here today? 10 Apparently she is not here. 11 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Mr. Armstrong? 12 MR. ARMSTRONG: Chair, you have our 13 complaint filed June 15th. We'll rely on the papers 14 before you and the pursue the application of 15 suspension in this matter. 16 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Thank you. 17 Any questions for Mr. Armstrong? 18 COMMISSIONER SOMMELING: No questions, 19 Madame Chair. 20 COMMISSIONER EPPS: Move to grand the 21 Division's application to suspend Ms. Johnson's 22 casino service employee registration. 23 COMMISSIONER SOMMELING: Second. 24 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion has been made 25 and seconded. All those in favor? 17 ITEM NO. 6 1 (Ayes.) 2 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Opposed? 3 (No response.) 4 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion carries. 5 MS. FRIGEN: Thank you. 6 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Thank you. 7 MR. ARMSTRONG: Thank you. 8 MR. NANCE: Item No. 6, petition of the 9 Division of Gaming Enforcement to grant testimonial 10 immunity in the matter of the investigation of 11 Interstate Industrial Corporation, Interstate 12 Drywall Corporation, and Frank DiTommaso and Peter 13 DiTommaso. 14 Miss Nagengast? 15 MS. NAGENGAST: Good morning, Chair, 16 Commissioners. 17 You have for your consideration this morning 18 a petition filed by the Division requesting that you 19 confer testimonial immunity upon John Rosendahl, a 20 witness who the Division would like to interview 21 with in connection with the investigation of the 22 qualifications of the Interstate companies and the 23 principal qualifiers. 24 The Attorney General has issued her written 25 approval for the Division's request in accordance 18 ITEM NO. 6 1 with NJSA 5:12-67. A vote to grant immunity would 2 require at least four votes. 3 Counsel for Mr. Rosendahl has objected to 4 the Division's request. Mr. Hobbie is here on 5 behalf of Mr. Rosendahl, and counsel is here on 6 behalf of the Division if they can enter their 7 appearances. 8 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Thank you. 9 MR. EHRLICH: Thank you, Chair. Gary 10 Ehrlich, Assistant Attorney General for the Division 11 along with our Deputy Director, Mitchell Schwefel. 12 This matter involves a provision of the 13 Casino Control Act that is rarely used here but is a 14 very important one. It says that in the course of 15 an investigation or hearing, if a witness invokes 16 the Fifth Amendment, it is open to the Commission to 17 grant immunity to that witness with the written 18 approval of the attorney general, which you have in 19 this case by way of the petition. 20 As we explained, we were doing the sworn 21 statement of this particular witness, Mr. Rosendahl. 22 He did provide certain information to us but at a 23 point where we were asking him about conversations 24 he had with Frank DiTommaso with regard to 25 renovations provided at Bernard Kerik's apartment, 19 ITEM NO. 6 1 he evoked the Fifth Amendment to a series of 2 questions. That information could be significant 3 because the DiTommasos have consistently provided 4 information to us to the effect that they did not 5 pay for these renovations, that they knew nothing 6 about them. 7 As you know from our complaint, the Division 8 believes that testimony is completely untruthful, 9 and the testimony that we seek to get here could 10 possibly be something that would refute their 11 testimony. 12 I have read the response by counsel for the 13 witness here. Frankly, it's the wrong forum to make 14 that argument, and I don't want to waste your time 15 this morning by arguing a point of law that is 16 really not relevant here. 17 As this Commission knows, yourselves as 18 every administrative agency, does not have 19 jurisdiction to determine that any part of its 20 enabling legislation is unconstitutional. If, in 21 fact, it is, that's an argument that should be made 22 to a court, and that's where it belongs. 23 Whether the testimonial immunity is 24 sufficient for transactional immunity is required, 25 that's not something that you need to determine for 20 ITEM NO. 6 1 yourselves this morning. 2 So based on our petition and based on 3 section 67 of the Casino Control Act and based on 4 the written approval of the Attorney General, we 5 request that you grant the immunity as petitioned by 6 the Division. 7 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Mr. Ehrlich, can you just 8 clarify the statute for me? My understanding is the 9 statute would allow us the granting of testimonial 10 immunity but not transactional immunity. 11 MR. EHRLICH: That is correct. 12 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Thank you. 13 Mr. Hobbie? 14 MR. HOBBIE: Michael Hobbie from Hobbie, 15 Corrigan, Bertucio & Tashjy on behalf of the 16 witness, John Rosendahl. 17 Certain things were said that I think were 18 disingenuous by counsel. First of all, my client 19 appeared and for two hours was questioned, and 20 here's the transcript. I don't think they had the 21 courtesy to provide it. Throughout this, there's 22 only eight questions, only eight questions in which 23 he said I'm invoking the Fifth. 24 Mr. Rosendahl was an intern at an 25 architecture company, not working for -- an intern. 21 ITEM NO. 6 1 They're seeking here today to use something, by 2 their own admission, which is very rarely used. And 3 the reason it's really rarely used is because it's a 4 significant step. Invoking and trumping someone's 5 Fifth Amendment right is something that is very, 6 very critical, and something that I don't think -- 7 regardless of what forum we're in -- that this panel 8 has to think about very clearly before they trump 9 someone's Fifth Amendment right. 10 Basically they're saying, you can come here, 11 in here, testify. The stuff you tell us we're not 12 going to go after you, but we're still going to go 13 after you if we want to go after you. 14 Mr. Rosendahl came before the panel, was 15 interviewed for two hours. Answered all the 16 questions except for eight or nine. If their case 17 is going to stem on those eight or nine questions, 18 they don't have much of a case. If he's the guy 19 they're relying on to carry the day, their case is 20 not going to be around very long, before this 21 Commission or anywhere else. 22 Mr. Rosendahl was an insignificant intern 23 for a year when this alleged project was going on. 24 I'm not speaking to that. I don't know what's going 25 on there. But he was an intern. He has concerns 22 ITEM NO. 6 1 about his own future as well as his own information 2 that he wants to invoke the right to not speak 3 about. And he's come. He's spoken to this panel 4 before. He's spoken. He's been questioned. To 5 sort of say to him, you got to come back here now, 6 and we're going to trump your Fifth Amendment 7 rights, I think, is improper. 8 If that's going to be done, we're arguing 9 for transactional. Meaning nothing he says can be 10 used, and he can't be prosecuted for anything. 11 That is the only appropriate thing to do is 12 if you're going to trump someone's Fifth Amendment 13 right, which is a significant right that we all 14 have. That is not something that we look lightly 15 upon. 16 The 67 -- 12 -- 5:12-67 statute is a statute 17 that's very rarely used. I went to West Law last 18 night. There's one case that it comes up on. So 19 we're treading on grounds that's not gone to before. 20 And I think the Commission has got to think long and 21 hard about what they're doing here and to what type 22 of person they're doing it to. 23 This is not someone's who's disappeared, is 24 the lynchpin of the case. This an insignificant 25 player, was an intern at an architectural firm for 23 ITEM NO. 6 1 about a year. But nevertheless, he came and was 2 questioned for two hours. 3 So under those circumstances, we think that 4 there should be no testimonial immunity, that the 5 application be denied. But if you're in favor of 6 some sort of immunity, it's got to be transactional 7 immunity. 8 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Mr. Hobbie, you would 9 concede, though, that the statute says what it says 10 in terms of the type of immunity that we could grant 11 as a body? 12 MR. HOBBIE: The statute says what it says, 13 Your Honor -- Your Honor, Miss Commissioner, Madame 14 Chair. It says what it says. But that being said, 15 the Constitution is something that trumps everyone. 16 I don't care where we are, in front of what panel. 17 The Constitutional rights are what they are, and no 18 statute can attack them or lessen our rights. And 19 unless Mr. Rosendahl. The statute does say what it 20 says. You know, it is what it is. 21 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Thank you. 22 Questions? Commissioner Epps? 23 COMMISSIONER EPPS: Just to follow up on 24 your statement then, if the statute says what it 25 says, then what authority do we have to go beyond 24 ITEM NO. 6 1 what our statutory limits are? We've got certain 2 statutory ability that we can use. Beyond that, 3 we're without any other power. And I think Mr. 4 Ehrlich's right. Your argument is for an a 5 different place. 6 We can't change what our rules say we can or 7 can't do. We don't have the ability to do that. So 8 to argue here to do something beyond our power is a 9 waste of everyone's time because we can't do it. 10 MR. HOBBIE: I hope I'm not wasting your 11 time. You have a twofold argument here. Number one 12 is you should not use the statute. That's the first 13 time argument. 14 COMMISSIONER EPPS: That's the first 15 argument. 16 MR. HOBBIE: That's my first argument. This 17 is not the case for testimonial immunity. He's come 18 forth. He's been here for two hours, answered 19 hundreds of questions, documents, the whole nine 20 yards. The first argument is he's an insignificant 21 player. He's an intern in an architectural firm. 22 And if that's what they're relying on for their 23 case, it's going to be a very short proceedings. 24 That's my first argument. 25 My second argument in addressing your point 25 ITEM NO. 6 1 is the statute says what it says, and I know the 2 Commission has its power, is bound by the four 3 corners of the statute. However, however, there is 4 still something above you called the "Constitution," 5 and you can say we're going to pass on this. It's 6 been addressed once before. We're going to pass on 7 this. You don't have to -- you don't have to do it. 8 You don't have to exercise it. In your ruling you 9 don't have to say it's unconstitutional, but you can 10 say we're not going to do it in this case because we 11 don't feel that this statute or this is going to 12 trump this guy's Fifth Amendment rights. 13 COMMISSIONER EPPS: But that's not the same 14 thing. That, again, goes back to your first 15 argument that we choose not to exercise our ability 16 to order this. That's your first argument. I heard 17 that. 18 But your second argument seems to suggest 19 that we should grant further immunity that we're 20 able to. We can't do that. 21 MR. HOBBIE: If you were inclined to go to 22 go that way. 23 COMMISSIONER EPPS: Right. 24 MR. HOBBIE: If we were inclined to go that 25 way. 26 ITEM NO. 6 1 COMMISSIONER EPPS: If we grant immunity, we 2 can only grant the limited immunity we're allowed by 3 statute. But we can't do, which your second 4 argument, grant further immunity. We don't have it 5 within our powers. This is the wrong place for 6 that. 7 MR. HOBBIE: I understand that. And then we 8 may be in the right place in spending more of the 9 taxpayer's money on an insignificant issue, wasting 10 time. This is clearly -- Mr. Rosendahl sees this as 11 clearly a muscling tactic to annoy and to harass him 12 and bust his chops, frankly. And at the end of the 13 day, wherever this case goes, Rosendahl you're not 14 going to see him anymore, because he doesn't have -- 15 it's not going to be the witness that is going to 16 carry the case for them. 17 So, respectfully, I would ask, number one, 18 this is not the case in which testimony -- 19 (Conferring.) 20 MR. HOBBIE: Excuse me? 21 MR. SCHWEFEL: I was talking to my 22 colleague. 23 MR. HOBBIE: Okay. I would ask for a little 24 bit of respect. When your colleague was speaking, I 25 didn't speak, and I would ask for the same courtesy. 27 ITEM NO. 6 1 MR. SCHWEFEL: I apologize if you overheard 2 what I said. 3 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Gentlemen -- 4 MR. HOBBIE: Okay. But how could I not 5 overhear. 6 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Gentlemen -- 7 MR. HOBBIE: I know. But I extend courtesy, 8 and I expect that courtesy -- 9 COMMISSIONER EPPS: Can I ask you a favor? 10 For the decorum of the chamber, let that come from 11 the dais as opposed to you. Please. 12 MR. HOBBIE: I apologize. Commissioner, if 13 you could just ask my adversaries to keep it down so 14 I'm not distracted, unless there are any questions, 15 I would appreciate that. 16 I'd be happy to answer any questions. 17 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Any other questions? 18 Mr. Ehrlich, anything to add? 19 MR. EHRLICH: Yeah. Very quickly. 20 I understand, he's a small player. It's an 21 architectural firm. This architectural firm did a 22 lot of work on the Kerik apartment. That's why he's 23 here. Number one. 24 Number two, I don't care if it's one 25 question, eight questions, or eighty questions, he 28 ITEM NO. 6 1 took the Fifth Amendment to certain questions. And 2 there's a reason that he did that. And that's why 3 we have the immunity statute, to overcome that so we 4 can get the evidence. Whether he thinks is 5 important or what place it has in the scheme of 6 things is not in discussion today. And, frankly, he 7 has no way of knowing that. You have no way of 8 knowing that right now. 9 We have a petition from the Attorney General 10 that says that this is significant enough that we 11 want to get that testimony. That's why we're using 12 section 67. 13 As far as the small player thing, a small 14 person can witness -- be an eyewitness to a murder. 15 It doesn't make any difference. It's what you know. 16 It's not your position, it's not whether you're 17 going to see you anymore, whether you have money, 18 whether you're being muscled or this and that. It's 19 what you know that we need to know. That's what 20 this is about. 21 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Thank you. 22 MR. HOBBIE: And briefly in response, 23 they've submitted to you a bare bones affidavit. 24 Bare bones. They didn't even have the courtesy to 25 give you the transcript or anything. I would ask if 29 ITEM NO. 6 1 they were going to ask you to do something which 2 would trump someone's rights, Fifth Amendment 3 rights, they would come before you and give you 4 something more than 12 paragraphs of why this is so 5 important for them. They've got to do to do 6 something more. 7 All we have here buried in paragraph 11, "a 8 critical issue bearing directly on qualifications of 9 Interstate and the DiTommasos." That's what we have 10 here. They've got to make a showing. 11 So I would say they've made an inadequate 12 showing. 13 Regardless of whether the Attorney General 14 signed off on this or not. I think the Commission 15 has got to step up and say what are you putting 16 before us here? Who is this guy, and what are you 17 doing with just three pieces of paper here? You're 18 asking us to do something that's very rarely, if 19 ever, done by us and come before us with this. 20 Again, respectfully, I don't think this is 21 the case and, this is not the witness to be -- for 22 the panel to exercise this grant. 23 Thank you. 24 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Thank you. 25 Any other questions? 30 ITEM NO. 7 1 COMMISSIONER SOMMELING: Madame Chair, move 2 to grant the petition for testimonial immunity 3 pursuant to NJSA 5:12-67. 4 CHAIR KASSEKERT: A second? 5 COMMISSIONER FEDORKO: Second. 6 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion is made and 7 seconded. This a roll call vote. 8 MR. NANCE: Commissioner Sommeling? 9 COMMISSIONER SOMMELING: Yes. 10 MR. NANCE: Commissioner Epps? 11 COMMISSIONER EPPS: Yes. 12 MR. NANCE: Commissioner Fedorko? 13 COMMISSIONER FEDORKO: Yes. 14 MR. NANCE: Vice Chair Frulio? 15 VICE CHAIR FRULIO: Yes. 16 MR. NANCE: Chair Kassekert? 17 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Yes. 18 MR. NANCE: Let the record will reflect that 19 the motion is unanimous. 20 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Thank you. 21 MR. EHRLICH: Thank you. 22 MR. NANCE: Item No. 7, Petition No. 1600603 23 of Trump Taj Mahal Associates, LLC, Trump Plaza 24 Associates, LLC, and Trump Marina Associates, LLC, 25 is requesting the issuance of a temporary casino key 31 ITEM NO. 7 1 employee license to Gary Ng pursuant to NJSA 2 5:12-89(e) and to permit him pursuant to NJAC 3 19:43-2.6 to assume the duties and exercise the 4 powers of Senior Vice President of Asian Player 5 Development without first having been found 6 qualified. 7 Staff and Division have recommended that 8 this petition be granted. 9 MR. INGIS: Staff has nothing to add. 10 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Okay. And the Division -- 11 thank you. Okay. I'm assuming, there was no 12 position on this, Mr. Kimmel? 13 MR. KIMMEL: Okay. 14 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Could I -- any questions? 15 COMMISSIONER FEDORKO: Motion -- 16 COMMISSIONER EPPS: Madame Chair, I move 17 that we approve the petition and issue a temporary 18 casino key employee license to Gary Ng and permit 19 him to assume the duties and exercise the powers of 20 Senior Vice President of Asian Player Development 21 without first having been found qualified. 22 COMMISSIONER SOMMELING: Second. 23 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Motion made and seconded. 24 This is a roll call vote. 25 MR. NANCE: Commissioner Sommeling? 32 ITEM NO. 8 1 COMMISSIONER SOMMELING: Yes. 2 MR. NANCE: Commissioner Epps? 3 COMMISSIONER EPPS: Yes. 4 MR. NANCE: Commissioner Fedorko? 5 COMMISSIONER FEDORKO: Yes. 6 MR. NANCE: Vice Chair Frulio? 7 VICE CHAIR FRULIO: Yes. 8 MR. NANCE: Chair Kassekert? 9 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Yes. 10 MR. NANCE: The record will reflect that the 11 motion is unanimous. 12 Item No. 8, proposed publication and 13 temporary adoption of amendments to NJAC 19:45-1.40, 14 1.41, 1.42, and 1.4e. 15 Mr. Kell? 16 MR. KELL: Good morning, Madame Chair, 17 Commissioners. 18 Before you are proposed amendments that 19 would, subject to certain conditions and for a 20 period of time ending December 31st, 2009, permit a 21 casino licensee to utilize reports from its gaming 22 vouchers system or its coupon acceptance system in 23 lieu of slot machine meter readings. 24 The casino licensee would be required to 25 report and investigate all variances above $50. The 33 ITEM NO. 9 1 amendments would also eliminate the option for a 2 casino licensee to read slot machine meters 3 manually, which none of the casino licensees 4 currently do. 5 The Staff recommends it be published and 6 also temporarily adopt the amendments at this time. 7 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Okay. Thank you. 8 Any questions for Mr. Kell? 9 COMMISSIONER SOMMELING: No questions, 10 Madame Chair. 11 COMMISSIONER FEDORKO: Motion to approve for 12 publication and temporary adoption. 13 VICE CHAIR FRULIO: Second. 14 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion has been made 15 and seconded. All those in favor? 16 (Ayes.) 17 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Opposed? 18 (No response.) 19 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion carries. 20 MR. NANCE: Item 9, petition of Marina 21 Associates, Atlantic City Showboat, Inc., Boardwalk 22 Regency Corp., and Bally Park Place Inc., for a 23 temporary waiver of requirements of NJAC 24 19:45-1.42(o). 25 Mr. Kell? 34 ITEM NO. 9 1 MR. KELL: Good morning, Madame Chair, 2 Commissioners again. 3 Lou Anderson is here representing the 4 Petitioners. Deputy attorney Kimmel for the 5 Division. And in anticipation that the amendments 6 might be temporarily adopted, a draft resolution has 7 been circulated which would incorporate them. 8 CHAIR KASSEKERT: I'm glad that you're 9 sticking with us there. 10 MR. KIMMEL: I apologize on the behalf of 11 the Division. I don't know who was supposed to have 12 handled the matter. Obviously, someone should have 13 shown up. 14 CHAIR KASSEKERT: That's okay. 15 MR. KIMMEL: I apologize. 16 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Thank you. 17 Mr. Kimmel, on item 9. 18 MR. KIMMEL: This case -- I have actually 19 read the draft resolution that's been circulated. I 20 circulated a letter dated July 17th. The Division 21 has no objection to the petition. 22 In light of the temporary adoption that you 23 just voted on, the petition can be significantly 24 reduced to simply allowing Showboat to have a waiver 25 until August 28th until the temporary adoptions or 35 ITEM NO. 9 1 amendments are effective, and we would, therefore, 2 support what's left of the petition. 3 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Thank you. 4 Mr. Anderson, it's probably your petition, 5 and I was so excited to see Mr. Kimmel sitting up 6 here that-- 7 MR. ANDERSON: Always happy to hear from the 8 Division. 9 Good morning, Madame Chair, Commissioners. 10 Nice to see you all again. 11 We reviewed the draft resolution, and it 12 looks good. We're fully in support of what's in 13 there. And having worked on this long and hard, as 14 the Commission knows, this Real Rewards situation 15 we've been kicking around for quite a while. We're 16 all very thankful to the Commission and Division for 17 getting us to this point. Although we're making 18 progress, we're on our way back to blowing our 19 system out. 20 I have -- seated to my right, is Vicki 21 Guveiyian, who is by this time a familiar face to 22 you all, and we'd answer any questions if -- 23 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Thank you. 24 Any questions? 25 COMMISSIONER SOMMELING: No questions, 36 ITEM NO. 10 1 Madame Chair. 2 VICE CHAIR FRULIO: Move we adopt the draft 3 resolution and grant the temporary waiver of the 4 requirements of NJAC 19:45-1.42(o) subject to the 5 conditions in the resolution. 6 COMMISSIONER FEDORKO: Second. 7 COMMISSIONER SOMMELING: Second. 8 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion has been made 9 and seconded. All those in favor? 10 (Ayes.) 11 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Opposed? 12 (No response.) 13 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion carries. 14 Thank you. 15 MR. ANDERSON: Thank you. 16 MR. NANCE: Item No. 10, stipulation of 17 settlement in the matter of the application of 18 Paltronics, Inc., for a casino service industry 19 license application. 20 Mr. Ingis? 21 MR. INGIS: Good morning, Madame Chair, 22 Commissioners. 23 Once again, the Division's counsel 24 apparently is not present. Mr. Zarrillo, I'm told, 25 is in his office in Trenton. But Mr. Schwefel has 37 ITEM NO. 10 1 volunteered to fill in. 2 And here he comes. And Mr. Levenson is here 3 on behalf of Paltronics. 4 This is a stipulation of settlement for your 5 consideration which, if approved, will result in the 6 granting of an agency casino industry license to 7 Paltronics, Inc., and also a finding of 8 qualification for Angelo Palmisano. 9 However, I want to clarify on the record it 10 will not impact at all the qualifications of Terry 11 Trobiani who has been sent to a hearing this 12 morning. 13 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Very good. 14 Mr. Schwefel? 15 MR. SCHWEFEL: Yes. I'm representing the 16 Division in Mr. Zarrillo's absence. 17 I'm just signing the document as we speak. 18 He was concerned there might be a spelling error in 19 here, but I told him not to worry about it. 20 MR. LEVENSON: It wasn't my name. 21 CHAIR KASSEKERT: What, Mr. Levenson? 22 MR. LEVENSON: I reviewed the stipulation, 23 and I think it was satisfactory, and request that 24 the Commission adopt it. 25 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Thank you. 38 ITEM NO. 10 1 Any questions? 2 I think we can come up with some detailed 3 questions here. 4 MR. LEVENSON: Believe me, I know everything 5 about this case. 6 CHAIR KASSEKERT: If there are no questions, 7 I'll entertain a motion. 8 COMMISSIONER EPPS: I move that we deny 9 the-- 10 (Laughter.) 11 COMMISSIONER EPPS: I mean, approve the 12 stipulation of settlement and grant the casino 13 service industry license application of Paltronics, 14 Inc., and find Angelo Palmisano qualified -- 15 (There was a cell phone interruption.) 16 COMMISSIONER EPPS: -- subject to the 17 conditions in the stipulation. 18 VICE CHAIR FRULIO: Second. 19 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion has been made 20 and seconded. All those in favor? 21 (Ayes.) 22 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Opposed? 23 (No response.) 24 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion carries. 25 I think we better do away with these 39 1 mid-July meetings. 2 MR. SCHWEFEL: Thank you. Thank you. 3 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Thank you. 4 MR. NANCE: In accordance with Resolution 5 No. 05-12-14-19, the next closed session of the 6 Commission shall be held on Wednesday August the 7 2nd, 2006, at 9:15 a.m. in the Commission offices. 8 It is now time for the public portion 9 participation of the meeting. 10 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Is there anyone from the 11 public that wishes to be heard? 12 Seeing no one, I will entertain a motion to 13 close this portion of the meeting and entertain a 14 motion to adjourn. 15 COMMISSIONER SOMMELING: Motion to adjourn. 16 COMMISSIONER FEDORKO: Second. 17 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion has been made 18 and seconded. All those in favor? 19 (Ayes.) 20 CHAIR KASSEKERT: Opposed? 21 (No response.) 22 CHAIR KASSEKERT: The motion carries. 23 (The meeting was adjourned at 11:04 a.m.) 24 25 40 1 2 C E R T I F I C A T E 3 4 5 I, DARLENE SILLITOE, a Certified Shorthand 6 Reporter and Notary Public of the State of New 7 Jersey, certify that the foregoing is a true and 8 accurate transcript of the proceedings. 9 10 11 I further certify that I am neither 12 attorney, of counsel for, nor related to or employed 13 by any of the parties to the action; further that I 14 am not a relative or employee of any attorney or 15 counsel employed in this case; nor am I financially 16 interested in the action. 17 18 19 DARLENE SILLITOE CSR 20 License No XI01023 21 22 Dated: July 21, 2006 23 My Commission Expires on July 10, 2009 24 ID No 2062871 25