1
1 STATE OF NEW JERSEY
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3 NEW JERSEY PROPERTY :
4 TAX CONVENTION TASK FORCE :
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6
7
8 TRANSCRIPT ORDERED BY:
9 JACK DONNELLY, State of New Jersey, Office of
10 the Governor, The Statehouse, PO Box 001,
11 Trenton, New Jersey 08625
12
13 Date: October 6, 2004
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15 TRANSCRIPT OF HEARING
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17
18
19
20 Guy J. Renzi & Associates
21 Certified Court Transcriber
22 824 West State Street
23 Trenton, New Jersey 08618
24 (609) 989-9199
25 www.renziassociates.com
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2 PANEL PARTICIPANTS:
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4 IDA CASTRO
5 MICHAEL R. COLE, VICE CHAIRMAN
6 SHERRYL GORDON
7 SENATOR LEONARD LANCE
8 TERRENCE MALLOY
9 ASSEMBLYMAN KEVIN O'TOOLE
10 MAYOR GARY J. PASSANANTE
11 ERNEST C. REOCK, JR., Ph.D.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN JOSEPH J. ROBERTS
13 MAYOR JO-ANNE B. SCHUBERT
14 CY THANNIKARY
15 CARL E. VAN HORN, Ph.D., CHAIRMAN
16 SENATOR RICHARD VAN WAGNER, SR.
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1 (Tape 1, Side A)
2 MR. VAN HORN: -- Tax Convention Task
3 Force, and thank you all for coming out this
4 evening. We appreciate your attendance at this
5 important meeting, and we look forward to hearing
6 from you.
7 The first thing I'd like to do this
8 evening is just give an opportunity for my
9 colleagues on the task force to introduce
10 themselves, so you know who you're speaking to, and
11 I'll start here with Mr. Thannikary on my left.
12 MR. THANNIKARY: Good evening. My
13 name is Cy Thannikary, I'm the Chairman of Citizens
14 for Property Tax Reform, which is a nonpartisan,
15 statewide coalition representing over 400,000
16 homeowners.
17 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you.
18 MAYOR SCHUBERT: Good evening. My
19 name is Jo-Anne Schubert, I'm the Mayor of South
20 Bound Brook, and the President of the New Jersey
21 State League of Municipalities.
22 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you very much.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN ROBERTS: Ladies and
24 gentlemen, good evening. I'm Assemblyman Joe
25 Roberts, I'm from Camden County, I represent
3
1 District 5 in South Jersey, and I'm also the
2 Assembly Majority Leader. It's very nice to see you
3 all.
4 MR. REOCK: I'm Ernest -- Ernest
5 Reock, I'm retired from the Rutgers University
6 Faculty.
7 MAYOR PASSANANTE: Good evening, my
8 name is Gary Passanante, I'm the Mayor of the
9 Borough of Somerdale in Camden County; I'm also the
10 Chairman for Property Tax Reform for the New Jersey
11 League of Municipalities.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN O'TOOLE: Good evening.
13 Assemblyman Kevin O'Toole from Essex County. I
14 represent Essex and Passaic and Bergen County, and
15 I'm delighted to be here.
16 MR. COLE: Good evening. I'm Michael
17 Cole, I'm an attorney, I'm serving as vice chair
18 (inaudible).
19 MS. GORDON: Good evening. My name is
20 Sherryl Gordon, I'm the Executive Director of the
21 American Federation of State, County, and Municipal
22 Employees. We represent state and local government
23 employees throughout New Jersey. And I'm also the
24 International Vice President for the Eastern Region,
25 which covers the State of Delaware, as well as New
4
1 Jersey.
2 MS. CASTRO: Good evening. I'm Ida
3 Castro, I'm currently an attorney, also a professor
4 at CUNY School of Law, and a resident of Bergen
5 County -- I mean Burlington County.
6 MR. VAN HORN: Slightly different part
7 of the state, right?
8 Thank you all. Members, there are a
9 few members that were unable to be with us this
10 evening, they send their regrets, but this is, of
11 course, a large number of our members, so we're well
12 represented.
13 Let me give you a little bit of the
14 ground rules for tonight and explain the process
15 that we're engaged in. This task force was created
16 pursuant to a state law that established this group
17 to study the need for a property tax convention and
18 to consider and develop recommendations for the
19 Legislature regarding the process of conducting such
20 a constitutional convention that would be designed
21 to change the existing property tax system in the
22 state.
23 Now our task is to make
24 recommendations, including, but not limited to such
25 matters as the method of selecting delegates to the
5
1 convention, the appropriate scope of the
2 convention's inquiry, and the method for
3 consideration of the convention's recommendations.
4 And we're also to identify the specific issues or
5 questions that the convention should consider, as
6 well as the estimated costs of the convention, on
7 how it would proceed.
8 Now our report is due to the
9 Legislature by the end of this calendar year; and,
10 of course, that will be made public at that time.
11 And then the Legislature, in the law they passed,
12 has said that they would take a period of a couple
13 months to review these recommendations and to
14 accept, reject, or modify them, and then go forward.
15 So this is the first, maybe the second
16 really -- the first step was the Legislature passing
17 the law -- the second step in a very long process,
18 which is designed to build understanding, gather
19 public input, and to divine recommendations for the
20 Legislature.
21 This is the second of three scheduled
22 public hearings; the first one was held on Monday in
23 Bergen County Community College. And I want to
24 thank the folks from Mercer County College for
25 making available this beautiful facility for us
6
1 tonight.
2 Now part of what we're trying to do
3 here is, obviously, encourage as much citizen input
4 and involvement as we possibly can, and there are a
5 couple of ways in which we're doing that:
6 One is that, of course, we're having
7 these public hearings. There will be another
8 hearing on October 19th at Camden County Community
9 College at its Blackwood Campus. But we're also
10 encouraging people to communicate with the task
11 force, either in conventional snail-mail approaches,
12 or by sending e-mails to us at our website address.
13 There is a website address where you
14 can send us e-mails, it is nj.gov/convention. And,
15 there, your e-mails will be logged in. And anyone
16 who chooses not to address us tonight, or even if
17 you have other thoughts, we encourage you to do
18 that, especially if, because of time limitations,
19 we're not able to get to every single person tonight
20 that wants to speak. We will be able to hear about
21 fifty people tonight, and we've asked people to stay
22 within the three-minute time limit, so that as many
23 people as possible can be heard.
24 But, again, I just want to urge you to
25 consider submitting any written comments you might
7
1 have via e-mail to the task force website. And all
2 the task force members will be able to look at any
3 of these e-mails that come to the task force, and
4 they will -- they've got instructions for how to do
5 that.
6 If you use other methods, we'll also
7 make those available to the task force members, and
8 they -- all the task force members will be able to
9 look at everything that you send in. And if you
10 have things to give us tonight, please give it to me
11 or a member of our staff, who are here, and they
12 will, as well, make that available to us. So there
13 are multiple ways for you to communicate.
14 Now, as far as tonight, we have a
15 sign-up sheet, which people have signed in, and I'm
16 going to call people in the order that they have
17 signed up. I'm going to ask -- and then I'm going
18 to tell you who the next person is, so you can get
19 ready. I would ask you to come down to the witness
20 table, there's a microphone here. And you're going
21 to have to speak directly into the microphone that
22 can be -- so it can be heard.
23 All of these comments are being
24 recorded, so that, if you're shy, please be aware
25 that we are recording these, and these transcripts
8
1 will be typed up and made available to all of the
2 members of the task force; those who were here, and
3 those who weren't here. So we're -- as you can see,
4 we're building a public record of information and
5 advice from all the public who choose to speak to us
6 tonight.
7 I would also urge that, if -- some of
8 you have come here with a group and multiple people
9 are here with a group. And in the -- in deference
10 to people who would like to speak, I'd like to ask
11 you to designate someone to represent the group and
12 speak on behalf of the group.
13 Okay. So tonight we're going to begin
14 with Michael Horne (phonetic), who has signed up.
15 And, Michael Horne, if you would come down to the
16 witness table, please, introduce yourself, where you
17 are from.
18 And I do also want to mention that we
19 have a gentleman here from the Department of
20 Transportation, Alexander Brown. Alexander is
21 sitting there; Alexander is right there. And
22 Alexander is going to be the timekeeper from you, so
23 that you don't have to stare at your watch; he'll
24 keep track and remind you when you're getting to the
25 two-minute limit, and so on and so forth.
9
1 And the next speaker will be
2 Assemblywoman Linda Greenstein, who is here, over to
3 my right. So, Michael Horne, please begin. And
4 welcome.
5 MR. HORNE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr.
6 Chairman and members of the commission. My name is
7 Michael Horne, I'm not representing anyone other
8 than myself; I live in Mendham, New Jersey. I
9 thought I'd give a little bit of my background, but
10 not take up too much of my three minutes.
11 I served in the State Assembly from
12 1972 to 1974, I was appointed by Governor Kean to be
13 Banking Commissioner from 1982 to 1984. I was State
14 Treasurer from 1984 to 1986, and I want to say
15 parenthetically, during the time that the SLURP
16 Commission was formed, and I was a member of it. I
17 was appointed by Governor Florio to be Chairman of
18 the Pension and Health Benefits Review Commission; I
19 was reappointed by Governor Whitman. I was
20 appointed by Governor McGreevey to the Public
21 Officers Salary Commission.
22 I want to say that applaud -- I
23 applaud the Legislature and the Governor for
24 starting this process going. You have, as I've read
25 the issues which this task force faces, an enormous
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1 job, and I'm not going to comment on all of the
2 issues that you will be facing. I've selected maybe
3 one or two, just to give you some of my thoughts.
4 And what I'd like to talk about is the
5 delegate selection process. Reasonable people can
6 differ on how this can be done. I support the March
7 election, I understand there's -- some people feel
8 that it should be during the November election;
9 others during the March election. And the reason I
10 support March is I think it would highlight the
11 importance of the task force and the task of the --
12 of the convention.
13 I support the concept of no slogans,
14 no political parties. I support the contribution
15 limits concept, to keep money out of the process. I
16 would also feel that I would for certain feel that
17 state legislators should not be allowed to serve on
18 the commission. I would limit the selection
19 process, in order to -- to obtain people with as few
20 potential external commitments as possible; people
21 who don't have commitments to either an organization
22 or a political party. I think you will end up with
23 a better result that way.
24 I support the panel of retired judges
25 to review the recommendations of the convention, to
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1 see that they conform to the charge of the
2 convention. And I support the panel of the Chief
3 Justice and a panel of college presidents to appoint
4 additional delegates, to take care of a number of
5 wonderful people in our state who would love to
6 serve, but will not subject themselves to an
7 election process. Thank you.
8 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, Mr. Horne.
9 Thank you very much.
10 And Assemblywoman Greenstein, from the
11 14th District, I believe, if I've got that right.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GREENSTEIN: Good
13 evening. Mr. Chairman, members of the task force,
14 welcome to Mercer County College, the Township of
15 West Windsor, and the 14th Legislative District of
16 New Jersey.
17 As one of the sponsors of the
18 constitutional convention legislation, I'm
19 especially pleased to see you all here. Your
20 presence here tonight sends the signal loud and
21 clear to Mercer County residents and all New
22 Jerseyans struggling to keep up with the rising tide
23 of property taxes. Finally, at long last, we're
24 starting down the road toward lasting change.
25 Mr. Chairman, I'm especially pleased
12
1 that you chose to hold this hearing, here in the
2 14th because Central New Jersey is ground zero in
3 New Jersey's property tax debate. Last year, the
4 average property tax bill here in West Windsor; the
5 average bill, was $9,734. Just across the county
6 line, in Middlesex County, the Town of Cranbury, the
7 average bill was $6,900, up more than 350 in one
8 year. The homeowners I represent, not just in West
9 Windsor and Cranbury, but in our other middle-class
10 towns of Hamilton, Jamesburg, Monroe, Plainsboro,
11 and South Brunswick, all are being crushed beneath
12 this escalating tax burden.
13 One of the great failings of state
14 government has been our inability to grasp the root
15 causes of our current property tax crisis. All of
16 us recognize the need for reform, and hear the
17 voices of our constituents; yet, politics has
18 continually blocked our path.
19 I, for one, regret that we in the
20 Assembly couldn't tackle the task of finding a long-
21 term solution to our property tax woes, and I trust
22 many of my senate counterparts feel the same. I
23 would have liked to have been part of that debate.
24 However, we now have a chance to move beyond
25 party labels and political ideology, and hand the
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1 task of finding a cure to those whose voices are
2 most deserving of being heard: The people. And
3 that is why I'm here tonight, to listen and learn;
4 the very same reason you are. The people of the
5 14th District in particular will have a lot to say.
6 We can't confuse framing this
7 convention with the process of actually doing the
8 work of amending our state constitution. And while
9 I would trust this panel to do that -- your
10 backgrounds and expertise speak for themselves -- I
11 remain mindful that you are not the players on the
12 field; you are the umpires.
13 I am not going to have a chance to go
14 through my entire, rather long speech here, so I
15 will just say, it's my sincere hope that your work
16 tonight and throughout will lead us to the day when
17 we can say about our current system of taxes what we
18 say about the March winds: "In like a lion, out
19 like a lamb." We hope these high taxes will go out.
20 Thank you very much for allowing me to
21 speak, and I look forward to the hearing. Thank
22 you.
23 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, and you're
24 certainly welcome to submit the rest of your remarks
25 for the record, Assemblywoman. Thank you.
14
1 Quincy Vadas (phonetic) is up next, if
2 I've got that pronunciation correct. I may mangle
3 some pronunciations, I apologize, but -- and then
4 after Quincy, Tommy Silvo (phonetic) would be next.
5 So I would suggest is that both of you come down
6 here and sit, that will be more convenient for us to
7 facilitate the next discussion. Mr. -- Mr. Vadas.
8 Welcome.
9 MR. VADAS: Good evening. My name is
10 Quincy Vadas, and I'm here on behalf -- I'm a part
11 of the Paterson Pastors Workshop and the Education
12 Committee. Greetings to Mr. Chairman and to the
13 task force.
14 I am -- I'm from an Abbot district,
15 and my concerns is for our Abbot district in the
16 City of Paterson, where we do not have a lot of
17 ratables. However, in reading and keeping abreast
18 with the situation with lowering property tax, my
19 concern is, as well as from what we were reading,
20 according to the media, is that you're also going to
21 lower the property tax.
22 But in our Abbot district, in
23 Paterson, where I'm concerned that we have over
24 29,000 students, and a lot of them are on public
25 assistance, and a lot of them don't -- are not as
15
1 fortunate as other counties in New Jersey. My --
2 one of the concerns that we have is that, if you're
3 going to lower the property taxes, but at the same
4 time it's like a give-and-take, and then you're not
5 going to be able to pour the amount of money that
6 the Abbot v. Burke ruling has decided that you --
7 we're Abbot, and that the money -- pretty much,
8 leave the wallets there, as one of our public
9 service officials has said at one meeting. And our
10 concern, once again, is, if you're going to lower
11 the property taxes, we're an Abbot district, and
12 that the people of Paterson still get its proper
13 treatment.
14 And why wasn't anyone from Paterson or
15 Passaic appointed to the task force? And why in
16 Bergen County, when only one school in Bergen County
17 is Abbot, when Paterson and Passaic is Abbot, and
18 didn't come to Passaic County. Those are my
19 concerns.
20 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, sir. Thank
21 you.
22 Tommy Silva, followed by Mayor Marks.
23 Mr. Silva, welcome.
24 MR. SILVA: Good evening. Hello,
25 everyone. I'll be very brief because basically I
16
1 don't want to go over what Quincy just went over,
2 but that was my main concern, is how a city like
3 Paterson, with no ratables, it's -- our school
4 system is falling apart. It's been falling apart
5 since the state takeover.
6 And if we can't get the taxes -- my
7 parents pay taxes, they pay very high taxes in
8 Paterson, and it's not working already. And how is
9 this going to affect if the -- how is it going to
10 affect the school system? Because it's -- we are in
11 a predicament right now that it's going to take a
12 long time to turn around what has happened in the
13 last thirteen years there.
14 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, sir. Thank
15 you for those comments.
16 Mayor Martin Marks of Scotch Plains,
17 welcome, Mayor. And after the Mayor is finished,
18 the next speaker will be William Opferman
19 (phonetic), I believe is the way you pronounce it.
20 And, Mr. Opferman, if you would come down to the --
21 here, that would facilitate our discussion. Mayor
22 Marks, welcome.
23 MAYOR MARKS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman,
24 and good evening. My name is Mayor Martin Marks
25 from the Township of Scotch Plains. It's pleasing
17
1 to see representation on this committee from the
2 League of Municipalities. And I speak tonight on
3 behalf of the New Jersey State League of
4 Municipalities.
5 And I'd first like to speak
6 metaphorically by saying, it is not the mission of
7 this task force to move the mountain, which is New
8 Jersey's over=dependence on the property taxes,
9 unparalleled. That will be the mission of the
10 convention. Your mission is to build the bulldozer.
11 And with that in mind, I'll confine my remarks to
12 suit that purpose.
13 And I have the following two questions
14 to ask, and that's probably the most important thing
15 I have to say tonight.
16 First question: What approach will
17 bring the increased likelihood that the process will
18 yield a fairer revenue system for the future of the
19 families of New Jersey?
20 And secondly: Which will increase the
21 risk that we will let this historic opportunity slip
22 away?
23 Now spending issues are vitally
24 important, and the convention should be empowered to
25 look at spending issues. Like other mayors and
18
1 municipal governing body members all around the
2 state each year, I carefully consider my town's
3 spending priorities. We try mightily to cut
4 spending where we can, and to limit needed increases
5 to an absolute minimum. Every year, freeholders and
6 county executives do the same; every year, school
7 boards and boards of estimate need to do the same.
8 And every year, the Legislature, through the budget
9 process, has the opportunity to, likewise, to seek
10 to limit spending. So spending issues are, or at
11 least can be dealt with, through processes already
12 in place.
13 There reason we need a convention is
14 that those processes have not addressed themselves
15 to the fairest means of raising the revenue. No
16 matter how much you think government should spend,
17 no matter where you think money is needed or money
18 is wasted, no matter what the appropriate level of
19 revenue we need to meet our responsibilities to the
20 people who elect us, the simple fact of the matter
21 is that there needs to be a fairer way of raising
22 it. Even if we could cut spending, government
23 spending in half tomorrow, we would still have the
24 distinction of relying far too heavily on raising
25 revenue.
19
1 That needs to be the primary focus of
2 this special convention dedicated to property tax
3 reform. That is my main goal, and the central aim
4 of the League of Municipalities, and all the other
5 advocates of this approach, and that is the prime
6 need of the property taxpayers of our state.
7 Accordingly, we agree that the
8 convention can have the opportunity to look at
9 certain spending. But whatever spending
10 recommendations may emerge, they need to go to the
11 people separate from the revenue recommendations; if
12 you will, two conventions within a convention, and
13 then two -- two questions going to the people of
14 this state. If we keep the questions separate, we
15 increase the likelihood that the process will yield
16 a fairer revenue-raising system for the future of
17 the families of this state.
18 I have other comments on behalf of the
19 League, I have an editorial to submit that was
20 written by the Executive Director of the League of
21 Municipalities Bill Dressler (phonetic), that
22 appeared in the Star Ledger, and I'd like to submit
23 that for the record, and the rest of my comments.
24 Thank you very much.
25 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, Mayor.
20
1 Please do that, and submit that to the staff, if you
2 would.
3 Mr. Opferman is next, followed by Rose
4 Klevinger (phonetic). And Rose Klevinger, if you
5 would come down here, and Mr. Opferman. Very good.
6 Welcome. Welcome.
7 MR. OPFERMAN: Thank you. Greetings.
8 Greetings, task force members. William J. Opferman,
9 Hamilton Township, Mercer County. I'm a member of
10 the Property Rights Foundation of America, which is
11 based in Stonycreek, New York.
12 I'm opposed to a state constitutional
13 invention -- convention. A con-con opens up a
14 convention, and any part of the constitution can be
15 changed or thrown out, especially on our U.S.
16 Constitution. But going to a state constitution, we
17 have to be careful when a constitution is opened up
18 because it's subject to change of any part, throwing
19 out. So be careful on that.
20 Taking school tax funding off of
21 property tax only shifts the funding to the state
22 tax. I live in Hamilton Township and -- which is
23 Mercer County. Sixty-three percent of our property
24 tax -- and I have a little prop here -- of our full
25 tax, and sixty-three percent of our tax goes to our
21
1 schools, and thirty-seven percent goes to municipal
2 and fire.
3 Taking the sixty-three percent off our
4 property tax leaves thirty-seven percent. And I
5 call our "wolves," our municipal officials, will
see
6 this as an opportunity to incrementally up this,
7 more of an opportunity to -- still looks low, it can
8 even go up to forty-five percent, it still looks
9 lower than having a full total tax.
10 We can -- we can look at our taxes
11 when we get it on our property tax and our municipal
12 (sic) and see that there is sixty-three percent
13 there, that's part of our taxes. And that's the way
14 I think it should remain.
15 We're conscientious citizens. We
16 should be able to go to our school boards, go to our
17 municipalities and our councils, and watch and try
18 and put pressure on them to do things. But going to
19 the state for funding, I think that's the wrong
20 direction.
21 I thank you for listening to me, and
22 good evening.
23 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, sir. Thank
24 you.
25 Rose Klevinger, followed by Anna
22
1 Tallafiero (phonetic). You might want to come down
2 here. Rose Klevinger. Welcome.
3 MR. KLEVINGER: Hi. Real -- I wrote
4 all this down, so I hope I can do it.
5 Real property tax relief. This is
6 accomplished only when spending is cut. For the
7 past nine years, I have attended the school board
8 meeting in South Hampton Township; in these nine
9 years, I've only missed three meetings, but I've
10 certainly learned a lot.
11 I've seen a K-through-8 elementary
12 school with less than 1,000 kids be divided into
13 three schools. Even with declining enrollment, we
14 do have a superintendent, a business administrator,
15 three principals, and nine or ten secretaries.
16 Our regional school district is worse.
17 Without taxed parent knowledge, a car is given to
18 the superintendent, the assistant superintendent,
19 the business administrator; this for their personal
20 use, year road. The taxpayer gets to pay for the
21 car, the gas, maintenance, and insurance. The
22 superintendent does say he adds 15,000 miles to his
23 income tax.
24 We have four high schools in this
25 regional district. The schools have a combined
23
1 total of thirty-one principals, sixty-secretaries,
2 and thirty-four guidance counselors, and that
3 doesn't even include the thirty-four people that are
4 in the administrative staff.
5 These are only two schools. The
6 schools are out of control. They don't listen. I
7 go to every meeting, and I can guarantee you they
8 don't. The whole system needs to be revamped.
9 Since New Jersey is the only state --
10 I've called many and written many -- state in the
11 United States that has a superintendent for each and
12 every school, we don't need them. We have to have -
13 - we need one for the state, one of the county; and
14 in cities like Newark, Camden, you know, city
15 superintendents. Principals run schools.
16 All teachers should be state
17 employees, and they need to -- when a teacher is
18 hired, he or she should receive a current pay scale;
19 each year, the salary should be raised by the
20 current cost of living, such as Social Security,
21 federal employees and all.
22 Every four to five years, the New
23 Jersey Legislature should review the pay scales, and
24 determine if inflation at that time warrants an
25 increase. I'm getting -- and warrants an increase.
24
1 This would end the five, six, and seven percent per
2 year raises that have been occurring.
3 Health benefits. Would you believe
4 that the taxpayers are paying eleven to $13,000 per
5 year for health benefits and dental coverage for
6 school employees and their families? I don't know
7 the amount, but we're also paying that for state
8 employees. These are workers who have a very small
9 co-pay, if any. It is unrealistic to expect
10 taxpayers to pay the complete cost of benefits, not
11 only for the employee, but for their families.
12 Real property tax relief is when the
13 tax bills come down. There are many more ways to
14 cut taxes, but I've given you two huge ones. I do
15 hope you consider my proposals. They will cut taxes
16 across the state by at least $1 billion. Thank you
17 very much.
18 UNIDENTIFIED: And before we proceed -
19 -
20 (Applause)
21 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you. And I
22 appreciate everyone's patience in letting the
23 speakers talk, and not interrupting them during
24 their speeches. That's very helpful.
25 Before we proceed with the next
25
1 witness, I just want to welcome Senator Van Wagner,
2 who came in after we did -- Richard Van Wagner,
3 after we did our introductions, and Mr. Tom Malloy
4 from Bayonne -- Terrence, excuse me, Terrence, from
5 Bayonne. Thank you.
6 Now do I have your pronunciation right
7 of your name?
8 MS. TALLAFIERO: Yes, you do.
9 MR. VAN HORN: All right. Thank you.
10 MS. TALLAFIERO: It's Tallafiero.
11 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you. And after
12 Ms. Tallafiero, Mitchell Landis (phonetic), I think
13 would be next. If you would come down here, Mr.
14 Landis. Thank you very much, and welcome.
15 MS. TALLAFIERO: Good evening, Mr.
16 Chairman and members of your task force.
17 Let me first begin by saying, I'm
18 insulted that your task force did not find a way to,
19 one out of three of the largest cities in New Jersey
20 -- Newark, Jersey City and Paterson are your three
21 major cities, and your hearing should have been
22 brought in there, somewhere besides Bergen County.
23 Also, let me begin by saying, fifty
24 years ago we celebrated the Brown v. Board of
25 Education decision, on May 17th, 1954. I was a
26
1 junior in high school at the time, so you can tell
2 I'm pretty much up there in age. Forty years ago,
3 we celebrated the civil rights legislation being
4 passed.
5 And, yet, I come here today to talk
6 about a constitutional conference that would cut
7 taxes on the backs of the legislation that was one
8 of the most profound legislation decisions in the
9 State of New Jersey; and, I might add, the country,
10 since the Brown v. Board of Education.
11 I come from a city that has been
12 racked with municipal overburden. I come from a
13 city were 29,000 of its children are struggling to
14 get a quality education. I come from the days where
15 the state accepted budgets well below the caps. And
16 I come from the days when members like yourself sat
17 around a board of education and did not care about
18 children of color.
19 Being the third-most racist state in
20 the State of New Jersey (sic), we have to rise above
21 that, and rise to the occasion. I might walk
22 slowly, but I don't walk backwards. And we need to
23 understand that every child in this state, education
24 should never be based on property tax. It demeans
25 the fact that we don't care about children (sic).
27
1 Now, while the Governor sat here --
2 and he put together this task force -- why did he
3 not put together a millionaire's tax, that would
4 have prevented you guys from sitting here, and some
5 of you ladies, from sitting here, discussing how to
6 back-door a decision that rescues children.
7 I also come from the days of a city
8 where we sat there with a state department that
9 recognized that we had one of the worst educators in
10 the history of this country, who was Joe Clark, and
11 did nothing.
12 So you have a responsibility to help
13 rescue those children by all means necessary. And I
14 thank you.
15 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, ma'am.
16 (Applause)
17 MR. VAN HORN: Mr. Landis, followed by
18 Bruce Coe (phonetic).
19 MR. LANDIS: Thank you.
20 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, sir.
21 MR. LANDIS: My name is Mickey Landis,
22 I'm a resident of Middlesex County. I work in
23 Mercer County. I have four young children, all are
24 on or soon to be in the public school system. And I
25 am both very concerned about the high rate of
28
1 property taxes that we all pay, and I also fully
2 support the funding of the Abbot districts. And
3 whatever solutions this group looks to find in
4 reducing the burden that we all look to reduce on
5 our own property taxes hopefully will not come from
6 that basket.
7 But I'm here to speak about something
8 else, which is the business side. As a
9 businessperson, I'm a real estate developer. We
10 lease -- my company leases space to companies, who
11 have choices to make, whether to locate in New
12 Jersey or elsewhere. And just as we've heard
13 commentary that this shouldn't come on the back of
14 the Abbot districts, which I said I agree, I also
15 would not want to see this come at the risk of what
16 I've heard is looking to put additional burden on
17 business.
18 The reason I say that is that
19 businesses are typically ratables, which keep down
20 the taxes for the residents. I've been in a number
21 of forums and seminars, speaking with residents who
22 don't always understand that a ratable typically
23 means a company is coming in, providing all of its
24 own services, and paying taxes to the community. It
25 supports all the residential expenses of the
29
1 community, which typically exceed what property
2 taxes are paid per capita, per household.
3 And, in particular, the business where
4 I work, the Carnegie Center, right down the road
5 from here, has 2 million square feet of office
6 space, is the primary taxpayer in West Windsor. All
7 of the center creates all of its own services:
8 Garbage-removal, paid for privately by Carnegie
9 Center; snow-removal, road repairs, lighting, on and
10 on. There is no service provided by the
11 municipality or the state. These are the ratables
12 that the state needs to look to attract, to help
13 reduce the residential burden.
14 And I want to make sure that people
15 understand that businesses have choices. The
16 alternative choices are to go, in this case, to
17 Bucks County; or, in Northern New Jersey, to go to
18 New York State. Over forty states offer incentives
19 to businesses to locate within their state.
20 The State of New Jersey has to
21 continue those incentives. There was talk of
22 reducing or eliminating BEEP grants (sic) recently.
23 Fortunately, that was not done, better common sense
24 prevailed.
25 I just wanted to make sure that, in
30
1 any discussion of taxes, that there will be
2 inclusion of the voice of business, to help address
3 the issue of -- the very difficult issue that you
4 face here of how to reduce taxes. We certainly
5 don't want to do it by turning away the source that
6 will help reduce taxes.
7 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, sir.
8 Bruce Coe, followed by August Scotto
9 (phonetic). So if August Scotto would come down.
10 Mr. Coe.
11 MR. COE: Thank you. Good evening.
12 I'm Bruce Coe, I'm a resident of Lambertville, New
13 Jersey; I live between the canal and the river,
14 except for the last couple of weeks I've been living
15 in the river. But the river is gone, and I've moved
16 back into my house full time.
17 I also was chairman of something
18 similar to what you're talking about creating, the
19 so-called "SLURP Commission." This goes back,
20 Richie -- Senator Van Wagner remembers this, back
21 from 1985, 1988. We studied all state and local
22 revenues, and all state and local expenditures. We
23 spent a lot of time, a lot of money, too, studying
24 it, came up with a lot of recommendations; about
25 111. Of the 111, the Legislature passed about half,
31
1 roughly fifty-six or so out of the 111
2 recommendations.
3 I'm also President Emeritus of the New
4 Jersey Business and Industry Association. I'm
5 director emeritus of various companies. The word
6 "emeritus" means you're getting old, I think. I
7 think that's the refined definition of what it
8 means.
9 I'm also heavily involved with a group
10 of people called Citizens for the Public Good.
11 Those are words taken directly from the state
12 constitution. This came about, about three years
13 ago, when a group of us concluded that the state was
14 having trouble addressing certain issues, and
15 particular to, we were concerned about and talked
16 about what could we do, we're pay-to-play, and we
17 felt that needed to be reformed. We also knew why
18 it was difficult to get it done. And the other was
19 the excessive reliance in New Jersey upon property
20 taxes. And we know why that's very difficult to fix
21 legislatively.
22 So we actually concluded that we
23 needed to get the public involved, and so we formed
24 a nonprofit called the Coalition for the Public
25 Good. We were able to get funding from the Fund for
32
1 New Jersey, the Dodge Foundation, and the Schuman
2 Foundation (phonetic), almost $300,000 so far of
3 foundation money, to fund our efforts to get the
4 public doing what you hope this constitutional
5 convention will do.
6 We've been holding -- we had an
7 assembly about a year ago in Trenton, we've had
8 various other follow-ups since then, in June of this
9 year. I have one there remaining (sic), and done
10 very gracefully, by the way.
11 And I only have one thought to convey
12 to you, and the one thought is that your mission
13 statement is going to be critical, in terms of
14 whether or not this convention is able to achieve a
15 worthwhile goal. I can think of mission statements
16 that would absolutely torpedo the entire ability to
17 get this -- accomplish anything.
18 So, in that context; and, again, in
19 keying off my experience with SLURP, I would urge
20 you to not focus on the spending side of the
21 equation in the mission statement, but focus on the
22 tax revenues. It doesn't make any difference
23 whether you're -- when Governor Byrne became
24 governor in '73, the state budget was $2 billion;
25 when the SLURP Commission came into being in 1985,
33
1 the state budget was $8 billion; and the state
2 budget is currently $27 billion, something like
3 that.
4 So the question is: Where should
5 those monies come from? Should they come from
6 income taxes, sales taxes, corporate taxes, et
7 cetera? And if those kinds of issues, I think, are
8 critically important, and I think if you focus -- if
9 the constitutional convention is charged only with
10 focusing on them, it can be successful. If you toss
11 spending in, I think it will fail. Thank you very
12 much.
13 MR. VAN HORN: And thank you, Mr. Coe.
14 August Scotto, and then Jack Moslim
15 (phonetic), if you would come down, Mr. Moslim. Mr.
16 Scotto. Welcome.
17 MR. SCOTTO: Hi. My name is August
18 Scotto, and I'm from Hamilton.
19 The solution to our high property
20 taxes has been worked on before. I checked, and in
21 1965, everyone agreed our property tax was too high.
22 So, to solve this problem, they gave us a three
23 percent sales tax to lower our property tax. In
24 Hamilton, our school budget was $7.2 million, and
25 the student enrollment was 14,000.
34
1 In 1968, they borrowed $1 billion for
2 a school bond issue for education, to lower our
3 property taxes. Our school budget was $9 million in
4 Hamilton then.
5 In 1970, they raised the sales tax to
6 five percent, to lower our property tax. Our total
7 school budget was $10 million. Also in 1970, they
8 started the New Jersey Lottery to lower our property
9 tax.
10 (Laughter)
11 MR. SCOTTO: Then, in 1976, they
12 really changed things. They gave us the Atlantic
13 City Casinos and the New Jersey Income Tax, to lower
14 our property tax.
15 (Laughter)
16 MR. SCOTTO: The Hamilton school
17 budget was $24 million. Later, they raised the
18 sales tax to six percent, and they raised the income
19 tax, and they gave us a lot of other tax goodies to
20 lower our property tax.
21 But did they all help? Well, in
22 Hamilton today is $149.3 million, and there's only
23 13,500 students. And so they fooled us, didn't
24 they? And in the same period of time, inflation
25 only rose about 195 percent. So it's not working
35
1 out that way, the way they should work out.
2 And I checked with the U.S. Department
3 of Education, and they said that the state spends
4 more money, this New Jersey, on education than any
5 state in the country. We are near the top of all
6 the states in salaries we pay out in our schools.
7 But then I was told the quality of education, we
8 rank twenty-sixth in the country. So we're not
9 getting what we pay for.
10 So money is not the problem. They got
11 to stop spending at all levels of government. They
12 got to stop this baloney about, well, we need this,
13 where do you want to cut. All they got to do is
14 stop -- to use the -- that pay-to-play, to keep the
15 contractors from putting in more money than they
16 ever put in in the history of New Jersey, so they
17 want that money back with interest. And who pays
18 it? We do, with all our taxes.
19 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you.
20 (Applause)
21 MR. VAN HORN: Mr. Moslim, if I have
22 that correct, and Walter Helfrecht (phonetic),
23 following that.
24 MR. MOSLIM: Good evening, and thank
25 you very much for being here. This is a great
36
1 public service. And in my own little way, I was an
2 activist for this convention, gathering petition
3 signatures, and I would like to thank you. It's a
4 long time coming.
5 My name is Jack Moslim, I am a former
6 local official, and that makes me an expert in
7 nothing, but I have some practical thoughts that I'd
8 like to share with you.
9 It seems to me that, in terms of the
10 scope of the convention, it ought to consider two
11 things; the first of which, of course, is abolishing
12 the property tax all together as a way to fund
13 public schools.
14 If we were -- if our goal was to
15 create a system that would guarantee that the middle
16 class could never get ahead, that poor people could
17 never afford to buy their own homes, that senior
18 citizens would have to leave, and that the last
19 blade in New Jersey would be paved over, we would
20 invent the property tax. It is a relic of the 19th
21 Century, it is entirely regressive, and it's got to
22 be abolished and replaced with something much more
23 broadly based, something which more people pay, and
24 something which is not -- something which is, in
25 some way, related to one's ability to pay the tax.
37
1 And keep this in mind, because there
2 are those who would defend the status quo. I am
3 convinced, and I think most people who pay the
4 property tax are convinced, that whatever the
5 convention could produce in the way of replacement
6 can't possibly be worse than the property tax itself
7 as a way to pay for schools.
8 Secondarily, I would -- I would urge
9 that the convention be required to consider
10 establishing, again, a bright, bold division between
11 the responsibilities of the Legislature and the
12 responsibility of the Supreme Court of the State of
13 New Jersey, which has no business, none; it has no
14 constitutional authority to make determinations on
15 how our money should be spent, for whose benefit,
16 and how much of it. That's the Legislature's
17 responsibility. We elect you guys to do those
18 things. And it's time that the Legislature be
19 required, I think, to take its own responsibility
20 under the constitution more seriously.
21 I have a lot more ideas, but I don't
22 want to bore you with them. So thank you very much
23 once again.
24 I want to make a special
25 congratulations to Cy Thannikary, with whom I worked
38
1 a little bit. He was absolutely fearless and
2 determined, and I think that this is very much the
3 result of his efforts.
4 Thank you all very much.
5 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, sir.
6 (Applause)
7 MR. VAN HORN: Walter Helfrecht, and
8 then Michelle Sakerka (sic), I believe it is, from
9 the Greater Mercer County Chamber of Commerce. Mr.
10 Helfrecht.
11 MR. HELFRECHT: Good evening, members
12 of the task force. I'm Walter Helfrecht, a resident
13 of Upper Freehold Township in Monmouth County, I've
14 been a lifelong resident of New Jersey for fifty-one
15 years, I've been a homeowner for about half that
16 time; and, of course, a property taxpayer. I have
17 several suggestions for your consideration.
18 The first suggestion: Read Alan
19 Karcher's book, New Jersey's Multiple Municipal
20 Madness. Mr. Karcher described in great detail the
21 various dynamics that have caused the formation of
22 over 560 municipalities in the twenty-one counties
23 of New Jersey. In a nutshell, those dynamics were
24 based in greed, extreme religious temperance and
25 political conservatism, controversies over ownership
39
1 rights to thoroughfares and railroad rights of way,
2 private communities which looked to keep out
3 undesireables or those of lesser means, and
4 development of communities around school system
5 boundaries.
6 All of this tells anyone who's
7 intelligent and paying attention that there is
8 something very wrong with this system, and it has
9 been very wrong for over 200 years. The historical
10 understanding is essential, in order to effectively
11 guide the formation of the constitutional
12 convention.
13 My second suggestion: No voters -- no
14 legislators voting in the convention. Consider
15 that, for nearly thirty years after the New Jersey
16 Supreme Court ruled that the property tax was --
17 (End of Tape No. 1, Side A)
18 (Beginning of Tape No. 2, Side B)
19 MR. HELFRECHT: -- out of Trenton. If
20 legislators will be admitted in any capacity to a
21 constitutional convention on property tax reform,
22 let them be heard for input only, but have no vote
23 in the convention business. They have had their
24 chance for thirty years to vote on the venue in
25 which they were elected to sit, but have not done
40
1 so. We don't need political wrangling in the
2 people's convention. In my opinion, this would only
3 sidetrack and create division.
4 My third suggestion: Do not discuss
5 thorough and efficient at this convention. That
6 will probably fall out as a result of realignment of
7 the monies from a reform effort.
8 Fourth suggestion: No remuneration to
9 delegates, except incidental expenses directly
10 related to the convention attendance.
11 Fifth suggestion: Ordinary citizens
12 only, no politicians or special interest groups
13 represented as delegates.
14 The seventh suggestion (sic):
15 Delegates to come from each county, and number of
16 delegates to be based on population therein.
17 I have just one final comment. Many
18 people are frustrated about the property taxes, go
19 to their town halls and vent their anger and
20 frustration toward the mayor and their governing
21 body. The municipalities are keenly aware of the
22 anger and frustration that their residents harbor.
23 But the residents must learn and understand that
24 much of what impacts the property tax bill is
25 orchestrated at several different venues, over which
41
1 the municipal governing body has no control. The
2 property tax framework is embodied in the New Jersey
3 State Constitution. That is why this convention
4 needs to happen, and that is why we are here
5 tonight. Thank you for your time.
6 MR. MINION: Thank you. Thank you,
7 sir.
8 Michelle, I'm going to let you
9 pronounce your last name, so I don't mangle it, and
10 Denise Millington (phonetic) will follow Michelle.
11 MS. SAKERKA: Good evening. My name
12 is Michelle Sakerka, and I am the Executive Director
13 for the Greater Mercer County Chamber of Commerce.
14 I'm an attorney by trade, and I also have the
15 distinct pleasure of serving on a school board in
16 Mercer County; that being Washington Township. So I
17 bring unique perspective to you today.
18 By I am here tonight wearing my
19 chamber hat, as representing the business community.
20 And it's important for us to realize that the
21 business community is often overlooked when we talk
22 about property taxes.
23 Property taxes are passed off to the
24 business community indirectly through leases, and
25 it's not just about developers, but it's about all
42
1 businesses who pay through their leasing
2 arrangement. We don't realize, and the business
3 community who pays through -- these indirect taxes
4 through their leases, they don't realize any relief
5 that may come through property tax, such as through
6 refunds or rebates, as property owners do. And so
7 it is very important that, as we proceed forward,
8 that we keep in mind the business voice. Just as
9 the residential landowner is being crippled by the
10 rising property tax, so, too, is the business
11 community.
12 Mercer County is a rapid-growth
13 county; in fact, it is one of the fastest growing
14 counties, both residentially and for business,
15 within the state.
16 My recommendations in terms of moving
17 forward with your -- with your convention:
18 Number one, this is a legislative
19 issue. Unfortunately, the legislators decided to
20 pass it off to a convention. If it's going to go to
21 a convention, there are some things to be
22 considered. First and foremost, let's make sure
23 that the business community does have a voice, and
24 does have representation. Very important.
25 Items to be addressed. Focus on
43
1 spending. But we have to look at what drives
2 spending.
3 There are examples of districts that
4 you've heard tonight that may overspend and utilize
5 waste in spending; however, there are many
6 responsible school districts who have no control
7 over many fixed costs in many aspects of spending.
8 Let me give a few examples of these:
9 The rise in health benefits. This is
10 a cost the school district has absolutely no control
11 over.
12 Tenure. That drives many decisions
13 within a school district. Tenure plays a
14 significant effect, and union influence plays a
15 significant effect on fixed costs.
16 State mandates, in particular unfunded
17 state mandates, result in an increased need to push
18 paper through school districts; and, as a result, a
19 rise in administrative costs. This is an area that
20 has to be looked at as part of any issue or any area
21 of looking at spending.
22 Special education costs, which
23 continue to be on the rise, and are pushed on local
24 school districts to pay for. These are costs that a
25 school district can't be -- can't push off; they're
44
1 required by law to pay for them.
2 A perfect example is Washington
3 Township, one of the fastest growing municipalities
4 in the state, not only residentially, but recently
5 has become a very fertile ground for business.
6 Businesses have the opportunity to come and conduct
7 business in Washington Township, but they're being
8 scared about the rise in property tax out in
9 Washington Township; and, through that, the business
10 community needs to have a voice.
11 It's very important as you go forward
12 that you consider these indirect effects on the
13 business community. We realize property tax is
14 about, first and foremost, residential. That's what
15 you hear; you hear the senior citizens, you hear the
16 property -- the property owner. I'm a residential
17 owner, I pay significant property taxes. However,
18 it's so quick for us to pass over the business
19 community and the indirect effects that property
20 taxes have on them. So please keep that in mind as
21 you go forward, and thank you for your time this
22 evening.
23 MR. VAN HORN: Okay. Thank you.
24 Denise Millington, and then Vince
25 Calcagno (phonetic).
45
1 MS. MILLINGTON: Good evening. My
2 name is Denise Millington, I am the Chairperson for
3 the Trenton PTA/PTO Liaison Committee, which
4 represents the Trenton Public Schools. I'm a
5 resident of the City of Trenton, have been for many,
6 many, many years.
7 This issue is something that, no
8 matter what you do, not everybody is going to be
9 happy, so it's the kind of thing that you need to
10 come to a consensus on, rather than a majority
11 decision. It has to be something where everybody
12 shares the burden equally, based on their ability to
13 pay.
14 Wait, no, that's not right. They
15 share the responsibility, based on their ability to
16 pay, because we're all responsible for the debts
17 that the state incurs.
18 Amending thorough and efficient is not
19 one of the options. If you look at the statistics,
20 they'll tell you that the number of beds that
21 they're going to plan for prisons of the future are
22 based on the third grade test scores now. I seem to
23 recall that across this state, not just in the urban
24 districts, when the state put out their new fourth
25 grade tests, our fourth graders didn't do very well.
46
1 Oh, but, wait, then the state amended the test, so
2 that they would do better. It costs at least
3 $50,000 a year for one inmate to be housed in
4 prison.
5 The focus of this, if you do go for a
6 convention, the focus of this has to be revenue; it
7 can't be the cutting, because everybody needs to cut
8 everywhere. But you can't cut it for children. It
9 would be like saying, well, you know, we know that
10 the senior citizens need prescriptions, but we can't
11 afford to pay it. It's the same as saying, well, we
12 know that the middle class need property tax relief,
13 but we can't do it for them. Nobody will be happy
14 when you start looking at cutting spending. You
15 need to look at revenue, and only revenue. Thank
16 you.
17 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, ma'am.
18 (Applause)
19 MR. VAN HORN: Mayor Calcagno. Is
20 that right?
21 MAYOR CALCAGNO: That's correct. Yes.
22 MR. VAN HORN: Welcome, Mayor. And
23 Sharon Ransavage (phonetic), if I've got that
24 correct, would be next, after the mayor. Thank you,
25 sir.
47
1 MAYOR CALCAGNO: My name is Vince
2 Calcagno, and I'm the Mayor of Washington Township
3 in Mercer County.
4 For me, the number one failure of the
5 current system, it is that it's making our children
6 a liability of our community, instead of an asset.
7 I have served on the township
8 committee for ten years and have seen my township
9 emerge as the classic example of why property tax
10 reform is needed. We have a wonderful community,
11 great schools, many volunteers, and actually a great
12 location. But when I-95 was completed between
13 Trenton and the shore, we saw the writing on the
14 wall. Our farming community would be a magnet for
15 development.
16 Since then, our township's population
17 exploded from 3,000 in 1980 to nearly 13,000 today.
18 Over the years, as the school children have been
19 moved in or have been born into the families that
20 have moved to our town, Washington -- Washington
21 Township, state aid has not kept pace with the rapid
22 increase. The result is skyrocketing property taxes
23 with little relief in sight. One of the -- my
24 colleges on the township committee even suggested
25 hiring a lobbyist to get the state aid that the
48
1 formula suggests we should be receiving.
2 Seniors feel worse in our town. They
3 feel priced out of their homes, many have taken out
4 their frustration by voting against the school
5 budget, where it is the only opportunity to register
6 their frustration. It's not because they do not see
7 the importance of educating our children; yet, the
8 dynamic between our seniors and the parents of
9 school-aged children has caused great unrest in our
10 community, and has been fueled, unfortunately, by
11 those who exploit frustration and fear to their
12 advantage, without providing any kind of real
13 solution.
14 The committee, the township committee,
15 has worked tirelessly to provide a better balance
16 between residential, commercial, farming, and open
17 space, but this balance will help, but it will not
18 solve the fundamental problem. Without reform,
19 business will leave, not only our township, but the
20 state, because the work force cannot afford to live
21 here, and the businesses cannot afford to locate
22 here. This is a dismal economic trend for our
23 state, not only our community.
24 I am certain encouraged, more than
25 I've ever been, to see the establishment of this
49
1 task force to start on the road to real, true
2 property tax reform, instead of this confusing and
3 questionably funded system of rebates. In fact, I
4 do believe that, if we can solve this problem, it
5 would certainly be worthy of a Nobel Peace -- Nobel
6 Price in Economics.
7 So I would just like to, you know,
8 thank you for this opportunity to speak to you about
9 this.
10 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, sir.
11 Sharon Ransavage, followed by Junius
12 Williams (phonetic).
13 MS. RANSAVAGE: Good evening. My name
14 is Sharon Ransavage, and I'd like to thank all of
15 you for the opportunity to speak to the task force
16 about this really most significant issue addressing
17 everyone in the State of New Jersey. And I'd just
18 like to follow up on the comments on the individual
19 who spoke before me about if you -- if the
20 convention is actually able to solve this problem,
21 they certainly should be eligible for a Nobel Prize.
22 I was very -- I basically am an
23 attorney in private practice. That's not my first
24 hat. My first hat is I am a wife, mother, and I
25 raised three sons in Hunterdon County, all of whom
50
1 were fortunate enough to be educated in the public
2 schools in Hunterdon County, which fortunately
3 provide a wonderful education.
4 I've always been involved in public
5 policy issues; because of that, I was appointed in
6 1991 Prosecutor of Hunterdon County for a term of
7 six years, which is one of the best experiences of
8 my life as an attorney, because I was able to
9 address public policy issues. And I've been
10 involved with the Citizens for the Public Good.
11 I was very saddened when I began to
12 realize that there were those who were concerned
13 that the decision by the Supreme Court in Abbot
14 would be undermined by a tax convention, and I was
15 saddened when I came here today and I saw the signs
16 in the back about fully funding Abbot, because my
17 thoughts about being an activist on the issue of tax
18 reform is that we would precisely do the right
19 thing, in terms of funding education for all of our
20 children at a fair and equitable level.
21 But this is not just a boring topic
22 about tax reform, that what we're talking here is
23 about social justice, and we're talking about social
24 justice in terms of how we tax people, how we
25 formulate our public policy based on how we tax.
51
1 In the very beautiful community in
2 which I live, we have followed the dollar, in terms
3 of developing land, building strip malls, widening
4 our highways, and chasing ratables. There are other
5 communities where they are older suburbs or cities,
6 where that's not the name of the game; the name of
7 the game is, how do we get more money to fund
8 eduction. It's sad that education has become such a
9 focus, but it is because taxpayers understand that
10 their property tax is directly related to education.
11 I think that it's critical for this
12 convention to succeed that we don't focus -- that
13 the mission is not spending. That is a total
14 abdication of the responsibility of the Legislature.
15 To the extent that we begin to squabble over
16 funding, we lose the real mission here.
17 The real mission is reform. The real
18 mission is to move towards a more fair and equitable
19 New Jersey. The real mission is to address those
20 issues that have been -- on which policy has been
21 formulated by how we fund and how we create revenue.
22 It would be sad and a major disappointment if the
23 ending of this convention was that we just had more
24 of the same.
25 So my focus and my purpose in speaking
52
1 to you is, spending should not be on the table. The
2 only issue is, how do we create revenue so that we
3 can move forward towards a more equitable and fair
4 New Jersey. Thank you.
5 (Applause)
6 MR. VAN HORN: Mr. Williams, followed
7 by Mr. Michael James. Mr. Williams.
8 MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr.
9 Chairman. I'm going to ask some of my friends to
10 come down here for this little illustration.
11 My name is Junius Williams, I live in
12 Newark, I work at Rutgers Newark, and I am in charge
13 of a group called the Abbot Leadership Institute.
14 When they get here, you're going to see a little
15 something here. I want two of you -- two of you to
16 face the audience, so they can see. And two to face
17 the task force.
18 (Participants confer away from microphone)
19 MR. WILLIAMS: We have -- I have a
20 suggestion to make. The cost of education are borne
21 up to fifty percent in many states, but only thirty-
22 seven percent in New Jersey; that's a thirty-percent
23 difference. Since property taxes are the main
24 source of funding for public education, we can save
25 thirteen percent of property tax expenses if the
53
1 state assumes an additional thirteen percent of the
2 funding for public education. Now this number can
3 be adjusted if we want to go higher than fifty
4 percent, but we certainly shouldn't go any lower.
5 The point is that decrease -- we can
6 decrease reliance upon property tax to fund public
7 education for all schools, not just Abbot schools,
8 but all schools. And there's a proverb that says,
9 "A rising tide lifts all the boats."
10 So if we focus on the income side --
11 and one illustration, the general principle is, and
12 someone already said it, we need to do something
13 that's attached to people's ability to pay. And one
14 of the ways to do that is to tweak the millionaire's
15 tax. It's already there. Folks took a poll and
16 said they wouldn't mind paying more, even some of
17 the millionaires said, we'll pay a little more.
18 It's out there on the table. We have to assume the
19 responsibility in New Jersey for increasing the
20 revenue if we're going to increase the state's
21 responsibility.
22 Finally, this is a legislative task.
23 Don't need a constitutional convention to do that.
24 Legislation that we let has all the power it need
25 (sic). We don't need to spend millions of dollars,
54
1 millions of dollars for a convention that's going to
2 be derisive, that's going to split the community,
3 that's going to polarize the community. We need to
4 just focus on one issue: Cutting down the property
5 tax in a fair and equitable manner. Thank you all
6 for allowing me to speak.
7 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, sir.
8 (Applause)
9 MR. VAN HORN: Michael James, and then
10 Richard Messenger (sic), I believe. Mr. James.
11 MR. JAMES: Good evening. Chairman
12 and task force members and attendees, thank you for
13 giving me this opportunity.
14 My name is Michael James, I'm a small
15 business owner and a property owner in the City of
16 Newark, and I'm an advocate for all of our children.
17 I have only two sentences I want you to hear from
18 me, and they are:
19 Please don't let the constitutional
20 amendment convention be the death of thorough and
21 efficient education in the State of New Jersey.
22 And don't balance the books on the
23 backs of our children.
24 Thank you.
25 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, sir.
55
1 (Applause)
2 MR. VAN HORN: Richard Messenger
3 (sic), and Marilyn Askin (phonetic) phonetic, slash
4 Doug Johnston (phonetic). I guess --
5 MR. MESSNER: Good evening. I want to
6 thank the task force for giving me this opportunity
7 to speak tonight, and also for the public to have
8 their input.
9 My name is Richard Messner (phonetic),
10 I live on 34 Betsy Ross Drive; the post office is
11 Allentown, but I really live in Upper Freehold
12 Township. I'm a former council member, former
13 deputy mayor, a former mayor, and a former
14 superintendent of schools. So I guess the peter
15 principle works for me.
16 Number one, I believe there should be
17 a constitutional convention to change the property
18 tax system, as well as expenses related to local,
19 county, and state operations.
20 The tax convention members should be
21 chosen, not by special interest groups, but selected
22 with specific life experiences that may reflect the
23 cross-section of the New Jersey population. The
24 members may be selected by county or legislative
25 districts by popular vote. Since the Legislature
56
1 votes for the setting up of the constitutional
2 guidelines, they should not be included as the
3 delegates to the convention.
4 Issues that need to be addressed are
5 shared services for municipalities, boards of
6 education. Counties may act as a conduit for this
7 process. It's happened before, it's happened in
8 Somerset County, and this is another area to
9 consolidate services.
10 Consolidation of school districts,
11 either by region, counties, or other configurations
12 should be considered. Also, municipal services may
13 be consolidated on a more efficient bases; for
14 example, shared services, purchasing other services,
15 salt, what have you. Special education needs to be
16 address on a more global basis, which also would
17 include out of -- out-of-district placements.
18 State-mandated programs ought to be
19 funded by state government. Pension costs, health
20 benefit costs that are approved by the State of New
21 Jersey must be viewed in the same light as other
22 mandates. The cost of the impacts on the county,
23 municipalities, and board of educations. Also,
24 utility increases approved by the BPU, et cetera,
25 consider placing a spending cap on local and county
57
1 agencies.
2 The wealth of a community should not
3 be determined on land or house values, but on the
4 ability to pay. Average, ordinary people, are not
5 real estate -- are not in the real estate business.
6 People generally like to stay in similar
7 environments, close to family and friends, and not
8 be forced out by increasing property taxes, which
9 certainly in most cases exceed the rate of
10 inflation. The greatest negative impact on these
11 increased property taxes affect people on fixed
12 incomes. Their needs to be a cap on property tax
13 for these people, and those who are working as
14 underemployed.
15 Thank you so much, and I appreciate
16 this opportunity to give my point of view.
17 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, sir.
18 MR. MESSNER: Thank you.
19 MR. VAN HORN: Marilyn Askin, are you
20 and Doug Johnson appearing together or -- Marilyn,
21 thank you and --
22 MS. ASKIN: And if he wants to hold my
23 hand, he may.
24 (Laughter)
25 MR. VAN HORN: Okay. Just one moment.
58
1 I also want to invite Gerald Nathanson down to the
2 table, while Ms. Askin is speaking.
3 MS. ASKIN: Thank you.
4 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you.
5 MS. ASKIN: Thank you. Mr. Chairman,
6 distinguished members of the task force,
7 particularly Michael Cole, class of 1970, Rutgers
8 Law School. A colleague of mine.
9 There are 1.3 million members in New
10 Jersey, AARP members, there are more than 100 AARP
11 chapters, and there are thousands of AARP chapter
12 members, and thousands of AARP volunteers. On their
13 behalf, we thank you for this opportunity, and for
14 your work on this important issue.
15 While we agree with many of the
16 advocates here tonight that the Legislature ought to
17 do its job and decide on how to reform taxes,
18 because we're concerned that a convention may open
19 up a Pandora's Box. Nevertheless, if you do
20 recommend a constitutional convention, we call on
21 you to report to the Governor and the Legislature
22 that the purpose of the convention and issues to be
23 discussed deal only with reforms of the system of
24 taxation in New Jersey. Restrictions on possible
25 remedies ought to be few, but one such restriction
59
1 should protect education quality and funding in the
2 classroom. Reform should be progressive and
3 eliminate the inequities of the current system,
4 which puts too much of the overall tax burden on
5 homeowners and renters, regardless of ability to
6 pay.
7 What I'd like to touch on now is
8 something that the other advocates have not raised,
9 and that is the criteria for delegates and their
10 election. At AARP, we believe this is a critical
11 issue. The task force will recommend how many
12 delegates will attend, where they will come from,
13 how a person qualifies to be a delegate, and how
14 they will be elected. It will also be considering
15 the roles of political parties in the elections and
16 what campaign finance rules shall apply. Lastly,
17 the task force will recommend the manner in which
18 the people of New Jersey will vote on these
19 criteria, as well as when the vote will take place.
20 AARP recommends that, if the state
21 decides to move forward with a constitutional
22 convention on property tax, then it should create a
23 clean election system that can be used by candidates
24 running to serve as convention delegates. A clean
25 money system allows qualified candidates to run
60
1 using exclusively public funds, and has worked
2 extremely well in a number of states throughout the
3 country. In fact, here in New Jersey, the Clean
4 Elections Pilot Project was signed into law,
5 sponsored earlier this year under the leadership of
6 Assembly Majority Leader Joe Roberts and
7 Assemblywoman Linda Greenstein.
8 The last thing we want to move forward
9 with a constitutional convention, in which citizens
10 feel left out. Clean elections can ensure that
11 average New Jerseyans feel engaged in the process,
12 and the delegates will serve the public interest.
13 I want to be absolutely clear. If the
14 task force does not recommend a clean election
15 system for electing delegates, then AARP may have no
16 alternative but to actively oppose the convening of
17 a constitutional convention.
18 Again, thank you for your work, time,
19 and your dedication.
20 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you.
21 (Applause)
22 MR. VAN HORN: Mr. Nathanson, and then
23 Richard Harburi (sic) following Mr. Nathanson.
24 MR. NATHANSON: Thank you for allowing
25 me and everyone else to speak this evening. My name
61
1 is Gerald Nathanson, I'm Vice Chairperson for the
2 Citizens for Property Tax Reform, and my function is
3 outreach. Cy Thannikary is the chairman of this
4 organization, and we've been working on this area
5 for this convention for well over a year.
6 I just want to sort of piggyback a bit
7 on what the AARP speaker indicated. The need to
8 have delegates to this convention appear to be
9 representative of the population is extremely
10 important; it's more important than any other issue.
11 If there is any thought in the public's mind that
12 this is PACed, that it's dedicated or steered by a
13 particular party or special interest groups with
14 special agendas, this will not succeed.
15 Remember that, after the
16 recommendations of this convention are made, the
17 public has their voice. If it's perceived that this
18 is not fair and balanced, if it's perceived that
19 there are groups within our population that are not
20 represented or significantly under -- under
21 represented, this will be fought to its death.
22 We've come so far, and I give you
23 people such credit, in having these open sessions.
24 It's absolutely mandatory that the public perceive
25 this as a positive step to rectify -- excuse me -- a
62
1 situation that has existed for thirty years without
2 remediation.
3 I implore you, and I am sure you will,
4 choose the right way to have delegates represented
5 for this convention, that the general population of
6 New Jersey will feel is proper, right, and fair.
7 Thank you very much.
8 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you. Thank you,
9 sir.
10 Mr. Harburi (sic), and then Seth
11 Stern.
12 MR. HARBURT: Thank you. Thank you.
13 I'm Richard Harburt (phonetic) from West Windsor
14 Township. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of
15 the task force for providing this opportunity.
16 I'm a typical senior citizen that has
17 provided extensive volunteer service to my community
18 for many years. I've been a resident in the same
19 home for almost fifty years. I would like to stay
20 there the rest of my life.
21 It just so happens that my current
22 income is strictly Social Security, which the net
23 figure is a little over $20,000. The 2004 real
24 estate taxes on my home is over -- it's almost
25 $8,000. After the rebates and the property freeze
63
1 that I qualify for, it comes down to about $5,000,
2 which is still twenty-five percent of my income.
3 I spent at least twenty years
4 volunteering for my community; thirteen of those
5 years was on the Board of Education of West
6 Windsor/Plainsboro. That board, which was from '74
7 to '87, and the superintendent that we hired,
8 actually created the West Windsor/Plainsboro School
9 District that everyone flocks to at this time.
10 I really shouldn't have done that job
11 along with my companions, because our property taxes
12 would have been lower, because we've had increases
13 of students, like 400 per year, for the last twenty
14 years. We had to build the representative schools.
15 Part of that twenty years of volunteering, in many
16 ways, was serving the youth of our community.
17 I would just like to say, please
18 expedite action to have a tax convention to correct
19 the antique tax structure. The over-reliance on
20 property tax is confiscated. There's a detriment to
21 diversity of communities and prevents the spirit of
22 community from being maintained.
23 To drastically reduce reliance on
24 property tax for schools would help inner-city
25 schools by increasing family home-ownership; thus,
64
1 stabilizing the inner-city population on a more
2 family unit basis. That would solve many problems
3 and reduce expenses of Band-Aid fixes for senior
4 citizens.
5 The delegates to the convention should
6 be expert in various disciplines dealing with the
7 goals to maintain a durable quality public education
8 and the means to pay for it equitably. They should
9 not be burdened with worrying about reelection or
10 election by various special interest groups in
11 carrying out this process.
12 The primary function of the convention
13 is to change the funding method of public education.
14 At some time, the cost has to be considered, but
15 that should be after the convention has done its
16 job, and the Legislature should do that through its
17 normal procedures. Thank you.
18 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, sir.
19 Let me recognize and welcome Senator
20 Leonard Lance, who's joined us. Thank you, Senator,
21 for coming.
22 And we're going to hear now from Seth
23 Stern, followed by Steve McPhillips (phonetic). Mr.
24 Stern.
25 MR. STERN: I'm Seth Stern from East
65
1 Brunswick. I'm not very good at speaking, but I'll
2 speak very short.
3 I don't own any homes, and I don't own
4 property; I rent. Even though that's true, rent is
5 very affected by high property taxes, that's why
6 rent is so sky-high in New Jersey, and that's why
7 people who are low-incomers, like me, cannot afford
8 to own homes because of these ridiculous, sky-high
9 property tax.
10 Enough is enough. No more of this
11 political nonsense. Enough acting politics. Let's
12 act as leaders and work together, work for the
13 American voters, us. Because we're the ones who put
14 you all in power. If you don't do what the American
15 voters want, no reelection.
16 I want to see property taxes come down
17 to be more affordable for the low-income workers,
18 the disabled, and the senior citizens who do not
19 have the money and cannot afford to pay high
20 property taxes like the rich people. It's hurting
21 me because I'm paying high rent. I can't own a
22 home. I'm on a waiting list for affordable housing
23 for any low-incomers. So let the state pay more for
24 the schools, and the taxpayers pay less.
25 Once again, for the Governor and the
66
1 whole legislator (sic), enough. Make changes. Do
2 what the voters want, or get out. Thank you.
3 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, sir.
4 (Applause)
5 MR. VAN HORN: Steve McPhillips, and
6 then Dorothia Kukodas (phonetic). Mr. McPhillips.
7 MR. MC PHILLIPS: I want to thank the
8 task force for allowing me to speak today.
9 I have two issues that I want to speak
10 to. One is, I want to echo Mr. Horne and all the
11 other speakers who said that this selection process
12 with the delegates must be as politically free in
13 reality and perception to the public, or this will
14 be a waste of time.
15 I also suggest, and I don't know how
16 many delegates there will be, but at least half of
17 the municipalities in every county have at least one
18 representative. Now I don't know how they're going
19 to do that, but unless that happens, there will be a
20 perception that our communities are not being
21 represented in total or in part, most part.
22 And the other thing that I hear
23 tonight, I hear the revenue side, I hear the
24 expenditure side, if anyone thinks that we're going
25 to increase revenue in this process I think they're
67
1 mistaken, because that would mean we'd be increasing
2 taxes. And that's just what I don't think this
3 constitutional convention is about.
4 I think we have to take a look at our
5 existing revenues and how they are distributed, how
6 they are distributed unfairly at present. There
7 needs to be a thorough analysis that how our state
8 funds that are raised by our present tax system are
9 distributed to the municipalities and our school
10 districts; and, in short, ensure that there is an
11 equitable distribution of these monies.
12 I am from Washington Township. We've
13 heard from two representatives of our community
14 already. We are being crushed by the rapidly
15 increasing property tax; and, in part, it's because
16 we are not receiving our fair share. So a thorough
17 analysis has to be looked at in this case.
18 And there also has to be some type of
19 adjustment to recognize in the formula for these --
20 distribution of these funds for rapidly growing
21 townships from political subdivisions. Because,
22 right now, there is no provision for that, other
23 than what lobbyists can get for the particular
24 municipalities.
25 I want to thank you again. And I also
68
1 want to recognize Mr. Cy Thannikary, a colleague of
2 mine, many years ago, and for the wonderful job he
3 has put forth in getting this thing started. Thank
4 you very much.
5 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you.
6 (End of Tape No. 1, Side B)
7 (Beginning of Tape No. 2, Side A)
8 MS. KUKODAS: Gentlemen, thank you for
9 allowing me to come here. I want you to know, I'm
10 older than every one of you.
11 (Laughter)
12 MS. KUKODAS: I was born in 1929, and
13 I've been writing about property taxes since 1947.
14 My parents were born in Greece -- I'm
15 going to tell you quickly about myself. I'm a
16 former school teacher, and I did taxes, income
17 taxes, for eighteen years. Both by parents were
18 born in Greece; I was the last of six children. My
19 sisters and brothers did not speak English when they
20 went to school because my parents spoke Greek in the
21 home, but they learned the English language.
22 And I was born in a little town up in
23 Carbondale, Pennsylvania, the heart of the
24 anthracite, beyond the Poconos, above Scranton, and
25 I got the best education in the world from teachers
69
1 who were normal school graduates. I learned
2 history, I had command of the English language from
3 high school -- from grade school through high
4 school.
5 Now I'm going to tell you why I'm so
6 interested in property taxes. My father had a great
7 influence on me. And when I was in seventh grade,
8 my dad, of course, being Greek, was in the food
9 business. And he -- we had a dining room and
10 homemade ice cream, homemade candy. And I used to
11 go down to my father's store after school every day
12 and eat an ice cream cone. I'd be one of the lucky
13 kids. We were never poor.
14 But I remember the Depression. I do
15 remember when my mother -- the hobos used to jump
16 off the train. I don't know if you people even
17 remember this, but jump off the trains into the
18 neighborhoods. And my mother always fed the hobos
19 who came to her door, never turned them away. And
20 they were lucky, she was a good cook, and it was
21 Greek cooking.
22 My dad, in -- in seventh grade, one
23 day when I went in my father's store, my dad said to
24 me -- this old lady, I still remember her name, her
25 name was Mrs. Rooney -- he said, see that lady. He
70
1 said, this is the greatest country in the world, and
2 that lady lost her home to property taxes. And he
3 said to me, Catholic Charities, in conjunction with
4 my father, were giving this woman two meals a day.
5 She lost her home, and she was living in one room in
6 a hotel. I never forgot it, it made an impact in my
7 life.
8 And when I was a senior in high
9 school, guess what? I wrote an essay that property
10 taxes were evil. And my teacher said to me,
11 Dorothia, she said, how will we fund the schools.
12 And I didn't know too much then, and I said, well,
13 it's got to be some other way.
14 Now I've been writing about this all
15 my life. I'm not going to read all of this to you,
16 but I'm just going to read you one letter that I
17 wrote to Mayor Palmer, and he thanked me, and this
18 was in 1993. And I said -- I told him, I learned
19 about the confiscatory tax from my dad, and I said
20 to him also, see, a black lady in Philadelphia lost
21 her home, nobody really cared.
22 A man up in North Jersey -- and I got
23 these from the newspaper, the Star Ledger covered
24 the story, he was a World War I veteran, and they
25 came to confiscate his home. Guess what? He sat on
71
1 the front porch with a shotgun. The Star Ledger
2 showed up, the neighbors gathered around, and they
3 backed off. And they said, ah, he'll be dead in two
4 years anyway, we'll get his house. Okay? This is
5 not contrary (sic).
6 I've written solutions -- and I know
7 my time is up. But I have written to Governor
8 Whitman, I taught in the public schools. And if I
9 can tell you the abuses of the public schools, you
10 will be appalled. And I am a cynic at my age, but
11 not a hundred percent. And you know what a "cynic"
12 is. All activities motivated by greed? I believe
13 that. But I have ten percent hope, that's why I
14 came here tonight.
15 And I would -- I can't tell you them,
16 but I have thoughts. I was in the school system, I
17 saw what was going on, I saw the waste of money.
18 And you wouldn't run your home the way I saw the
19 school systems run. I quit teaching; and, yet, I
20 loved it.
21 And I decided do income tax. And if
22 you know nothing about the Tax Reform of 1986, you
23 should find out about it. And I know I don't have
24 the time to tell you. But you, as Americans, we,
25 the common people, we would have a revolt, we would
72
1 have a revolt if you saw where the money is creamed
2 away.
3 I'm sorry to be here, but I have ten
4 percent hope, because I have five grandchildren, and
5 I want them to get the education that I got. I
6 graduated from Syracuse University, I studied at a
7 Jesuit college up in Pennsylvania, and I never
8 regretted my education.
9 But I'm willing to give you my
10 thoughts and what I experienced because I'd like to
11 see this change. I don't call my home "ownership,"
12 I call it "indentured real estate."
13 MR. VAN HORN: Ma'am, we'd welcome if
14 you would submit materials to our staff.
15 MS. KUKODAS: I will, I'll give them
16 to you.
17 MR. VAN HORN: And we'll share them
18 with the members.
19 MS. KUKODAS: I'd love to help.
20 MR. VAN HORN: The staff is over here;
21 you can see them now or afterwards. Thanks very
22 much.
23 (Applause)
24 MR. VAN HORN: Redmond Rose
25 (phonetic), or Rose Redmond, if I've got that right.
73
1 Not here. Okay. Sandy Jarvis. Sandy Jarvis, here.
2 And then -- oh, this is -- these are -- I'm sorry.
3 Great. Then after Rose Redmond, then Sandy Jarvis.
4 That's not Rose -- are you Ms. Redmond? Okay. I
5 guess Ms. Redmond is not here. Okay. Sandy, Sandy
6 Jarvis.
7 MS. JARVIS: Good evening.
8 MR. VAN HORN: And then -- just one
9 moment. And then Mike Fennell (sic), it looks like,
10 or -- from Wall Township. Sandy Jarvis.
11 MS. JARVIS: Good evening, and thank
12 you for this opportunity to address the task force
13 like yourself.
14 I am opposed to a constitutional
15 convention, only because I want to see the cost of
16 education in my town -- I think it's very important
17 for people to realize, and if had not been done this
18 way presently, we all wouldn't know where the big
19 problem is. Now I believe that the taxes are too
20 high, and the problem in the property taxes is waste
21 in education.
22 I'll be very specific, a couple of
23 issues that I want to see changed is, I want to see
24 reduced administration. I don't feel that we need
25 superintendents on local levels. Regional levels,
74
1 state levels, et cetera; I think those could be
2 consolidated.
3 I would like to see tenure reformed.
4 I would like to see, in the vein of changing tenure,
5 that there's more accountability.
6 And benefits to employees in the
7 education industry would be more -- more like that
8 in the private industry. There are a lot of
9 squabbles about paying benefits and different
10 perques for teachers. And that's something that's
11 just not given in the private sector. To boot, when
12 you are tenured, you're pretty much guaranteed a
13 job, unless you have some kind of criminal charge
14 brought against you, and I think that is wrong.
15 But based -- and then another item
16 would be the funding formula, I believe should be
17 reformed. The Abbot districts should receive a per-
18 student figure equal to the average dollar spent on
19 all New Jersey students.
20 I've read, and I've been told
21 personally by someone who was a superintendent in
22 Irvington, when that Abbot case came up, that they
23 have so many funds that they cannot spend it, they
24 don't know where to spend it. Money does not
25 educate students.
75
1 I think we need to spend our time
2 finding something that will help those -- those
3 districts, not just giving them money. They need to
4 know how to spend it, it needs to be spent properly
5 on teachers that will teach. Basically, that's it,
6 it should be spent on teachers, and more effective
7 use of that money.
8 But I believe that it is a waste, that
9 is the problem with property taxes, waste in
10 education. And if we can consolidate these services
11 and just make the employees of the school system
12 more compatible or more in line with what the
13 private sector is, then I think that will help
14 tremendously.
15 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you.
16 MS. JARVIS: Thank you.
17 (Applause)
18 MR. VAN HORN: Mike Fennell (sic), do
19 I have that right? Okay. Well, you can correct me.
20 And then followed by Mayor Bob Patten.
21 MR. FARRELL: It's Mike Farrell
22 (phonetic) from Wall Township.
23 I think the funding is a question,
24 where does the revenue come from. But the bigger
25 question is: What are we doing with the funding we
76
1 have.
2 High administration costs, as has been
3 mentioned; tenure, where teachers can sit and not
4 perform, perform at a lower standard. I've seen it
5 in my school district, and they said, well, if
6 they're caught embezzling or molesting, we can get
7 rid of them, but we can't get rid of a teacher, and
8 the teacher sits there and does not perform, and
9 students are failing.
10 I think we have to look at what the
11 Legislature can do. A constitutional convention is
12 not going to fix the problem. It is outsourcing it
13 out of the Legislature and letting them not be
14 leaders. We need to do something that says, how do
15 we lower the cost.
16 We do, obviously, have to look at
17 revenue. But fixing the constitution, my God, we've
18 been here for what, thirty years, trying to get a
19 constitutional convention in this state? If we fix
20 it wrong with a constitutional convention, it will
21 take that long to fix it again. The Legislature can
22 enact and do things on quicker time frame and can
23 adjust to what happens as they make funding changes.
24 The state should also stop mandating
25 programs they don't fund. I'd love to be able to
77
1 say, let's go buy this, but not pay for it. I mean,
2 this is ridiculous. They need to fund what they're
3 mandating, or back off. And they need to stop
4 playing games with the citizens of New Jersey. A
5 tax rebate? You're taking it from somewhere else,
6 it must come out of my income tax or my sales tax.
7 We need to focus on cutting the costs, reducing the
8 costs, looking at revenue.
9 I think you do have a hard job ahead
10 of you because you've been asked to do a job that's
11 impossible. The Legislature has made voters feel
12 that it's up to you as a -- as a commission, a task
13 force to tell them what to do. I think you ought to
14 go back and tell them, fix it, this your mess, boys,
15 fix it right now.
16 I think the other thing, too, is that,
17 in all of this, we have a vested interest in making
18 sure that our children do have an education. Every
19 one of us is going to be collecting Social Security,
20 those kids need jobs, they need to be able to be
21 educated to pay for that. I think we have to
22 realize that we can't leave kids uneducated, we
23 can't fund them unnecessarily, and we can't forget
24 about funding them. But, again, I think that this
25 is something that has to be turned back to the
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1 Legislature.
2 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, sir.
3 (Applause)
4 MR. VAN HORN: Mayor Bob Patten, and
5 then Alan Cohen. Mayor Patten.
6 MAYOR PATTEN: Thank you very much,
7 Mr. Chairman and members of the task force. And,
8 wow, you've got a job ahead of you. It's not going
9 to be easy listening to all of these comments, and
10 you've got, I think, one other meeting that you're
11 going to have. And to put this all together is
12 going to be very difficult.
13 And I do want you to be very
14 objective. Politicians tend to be emotional, they
15 tend to look and weigh things out, and I think you
16 need to continue to listen to the people and to act
17 on objectivity, rather than emotion.
18 I'm Bob Patten, the Mayor of the
19 Borough of Hightstown in Mercer County. And I think
20 it's all about these two flags right here. It
21 represents, among other things, equality, both in
22 education and in fair taxation, property taxation.
23 It's high property taxes that we're
24 concerned about, and it's really under-funding of
25 our public schools. There seems to be an increase
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1 in our state population, and we're about 8 million
2 now, and in another ten, fifteen years, we're going
3 to be another million people. And it's bringing
4 children into our -- our communities, and children
5 from all over the world, needing special education,
6 special needs. Language is a problem, and just
7 getting acquainted with our customs here in America.
8 I wish we don't have to go to the
9 point of a state constitutional convention. Our
10 state legislators and their former governors have
11 failed us. And if they have failed us, we have to,
12 as it has been mentioned during this evening, keep
13 the legislators out of this. They're not going to
14 help us at all. It's going to be the grassroots
15 people who are going to be more meaningful in making
16 decisions for the state.
17 I think we have issues that are too
18 many school districts, five -- 610 school districts.
19 We have too many municipalities, 566. This is a
20 small town. There's too many interest groups
21 involved in this, as you've heard tonight.
22 The funding is really -- the funding
23 for public education is everyone's responsibility.
24 And I must note that there are many private schools
25 and colleges and universities in the state which are
80
1 not paying property taxes. We have to refine that,
2 and make sure that everyone, including those
3 entitles, are paying taxes, as well.
4 Population growth. We're never going
5 to catch up to it. We have to be very careful about
6 this. We've got to be so far ahead in our thinking
7 in whatever we do to reform property taxes, that we
8 must make sure that we're looking extremely far
9 ahead.
10 And the last thing that I would like
11 to say is, don't leave a person like me, a mayor of
12 a small town like Hightstown, out of this process.
13 Put my name right at the top of the list, I'd be
14 glad to participate in this. Make the convention as
15 short as possible, don't stall it. And, again, keep
16 our state legislators and our former governors and
17 our former legislators out of it.
18 I would say, I do recommend former
19 Senator Bill Schluter as being definitely a member
20 of any convention. Thank you very much.
21 MR. VAN HORN: Alan Cohen, then
22 Councilman Gino Malone (phonetic) -- Maloney (sic),
23 probably. Mr. Cohen.
24 MR. COHEN: Alan Cohen, Lawrence
25 Township, representing myself.
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1 There are two sides to the equation:
2 Taxes and spending. Because government spending is
3 so high in New Jersey, and large amounts of taxes
4 need to be raised to fund the spending, inequities
5 in the tax structure are exacerbated. If the
6 overall level of taxes was lower, the inequities
7 would be more tolerable. Spending drives the amount
8 of taxation, and spending in New Jersey continues to
9 increase, seemingly unabated, if you look at how the
10 budgets at all levels of government have increased
11 over the past few years.
12 I'll just give you a recent example.
13 Recently, the Lawrence Township Teachers Union and
14 School Board completed negotiations on a new three-
15 year contract. It gives teachers pay increases
16 twice the rate of inflation over the next three
17 years, and keeps the generous health benefits. And
18 this is in the context of losing revenue from
19 Washington Township students, as they go into their
20 own high school. It's obvious the board just wanted
21 to avoid a strike, regardless of the future impact.
22 And I would like to challenge a
23 statement, an earlier point that was made, was that
24 health costs are uncontrollable. For a public
25 official to say that a cost is uncontrollable is an
82
1 abdication of responsibility. You would control it
2 by having employees pay more; pay more the cost of
3 their premiums, pay more co-pays.
4 Sadly, the ineffective cost control on
5 the local level is the rule, rather than the
6 exception. Even for seniors, you see benefits for
7 the really needs seniors; certainly, a worthy goal,
8 who need the assistance to -- for their basic needs,
9 for meals and prescriptions. But then you write the
10 eligibility for extending the benefit to wealthy
11 seniors. So then, in effect, my taxes go to support
12 someone else's inheritance. You know, not really
13 fair.
14 So one can argue that tax reform would
15 adjust the mix, but have no effect on the total
16 amount of taxes if you don't address spending. So
17 why do it? And I would suggest there's three
18 reasons why you would do it:
19 One is that it makes a tax system
20 fair. Taxes are more related to ability to pay, and
21 people don't get penalized or received a benefit
22 based on where they live. And if you live in a town
23 with less public schools or large commercial
24 ratables, you pay less.
25 The second reason is a bit more
83
1 complicated; that is, by shifting the taxes to the
2 state level and away from the local level, you may
3 be able to reduce the need; and, therefore, the
4 expense of local government. I refer to the cost of
5 maintaining all the school districts and
6 municipalities. If you raise school taxes through
7 state taxes, you can eliminate some school
8 superintendents, we can set teachers' salaries and
9 police salaries at the state level. And so the
10 inefficiency and inadequacy of local contracts,
11 where the union just plays off one town against the
12 other, and where the school board is simply
13 overmatched at the bargaining table. You know,
14 think about it. Why should a teacher or a police
15 officer in West Windsor or Lawrence, Ewing, or
16 Trenton, why shouldn't they be on the same
17 compensation system?
18 Thirdly, by increasing the tax level
19 on upper-middle, and upper-income residents; the
20 assumption being that their income taxes would
21 increase more than their property taxes would be
22 lowered, you will get their attention, and focus the
23 attention of this very influential group on the
24 level of government spending, and this will be a
25 very formidable advocate of reduced spending,
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1 something that we have not seen, because these
2 upper-income people have benefitted from the current
3 system.
4 I'd just like to conclude, I would
5 like to see a greater percentage of our revenue
6 raised by income taxes, greatly lower property
7 taxes; eliminate the wasteful, although politically
8 attractive property rebate checks that go out before
9 the election.
10 I would also like to see a wealth tax
11 be considered. You know, wealth taxes are called
12 "inheritance" or "death taxes." But
why shouldn't a
13 wealth tax be a living tax? We're moving to
14 eliminate inheritance taxes, so a living tax -- a
15 living wealth tax should certainly be considered as
16 a component of a fair tax system. Thank you.
17 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, sir.
18 Councilman Malone, and then Senator
19 Bob Allen -- Bob Martin, excuse me.
20 (Participants confer)
21 MR. VAN HORN: Councilman.
22 COUNCILMAN MALONE: Okay. Thank you.
23 Good evening, my name is Gino Malone, I'm the East
24 Ward Councilman (indiscernible), for the City of
25 Trenton. I would like to thank the members of this
85
1 task force for allowing me the opportunity to speak.
2 I would like to thank you for your efforts to tackle
3 one of the most troublesome problems in our city:
4 Property taxes.
5 Our current system is in need of
6 reform. During the past five years alone, the
7 property tax levy in our city has risen almost nine
8 percent, while taxable net value of our properties
9 has risen a mere two percent. During that same
10 period, our municipal budget, although largely
11 responsible, has increased seventeen percent.
12 Statewide, the property tax levy
13 almost doubled during the period of 1989, the last
14 year of the Kean Administration, to 2003, under our
15 current governor. This is clearly a bipartisan
16 problem, one needing a bipartisan solution.
17 For well over ten years, I have heard
18 the concerns of our city's seniors, disabled, and
19 residents a whole. Probably their biggest worry is
20 that they may someday be taxed out of their own
21 homes. They are frightened; and, quite frankly, I
22 am frightened for them.
23 How unfair is a regressive system that
24 disproportionately taxes its most vulnerable
25 citizens? How ineffective is a system that serves
86
1 as a disincentive to business investment? How
2 counterproductive is a system that has, in part,
3 served to reduce our commercial ratable base, which
4 has contributed to the higher unemployment and crime
5 rates we have seen in our city?
6 Seeing any lack of true reform to
7 correct the problems of our current system, I feel
8 that a constitutional convention is the right way to
9 go. We need true, responsible, and effective tax
10 reform, and we need it now.
11 With respect to the mechanics of the
12 constitutional convention, I would ask that the task
13 force consider including delegates who reside in the
14 capitol city of Trenton and have a voice in the
15 discussions. And with all due respect to our mayor
16 and my fellow council members, I would ask that the
17 city delegation not be elected officials; rather,
18 the delegation should be representatives of our
19 business community and our education community and,
20 most important, our senior community. I look
21 forward to seeing the report of the task force, and
22 anticipate with great hope that we can advance in
23 the cause of true tax reform.
24 Also, this evening, for a point of
25 record, I'd like to present a copy of a resolution
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1 sponsored by the members of the city council,
2 adopted on June 1st, supporting the call for a
3 constitutional convention. Thank you.
4 MR. VAN HORN: (Inaudible - not
5 recorded) and following Senator Martin, Pastor
6 McCoombs (phonetic). Senator Martin, thank you for
7 joining us this evening.
8 SENATOR MARTIN: (Inaudible - not
9 recorded) very difficult task, but I do think it
10 could be potentially rewarding. I have in my other
11 capacity, besides being a state senator (inaudible -
12 not recorded) as many of you know, I'm a law
13 professor (inaudible - not recorded) teaching
14 courses in state constitutional (inaudible - not
15 recorded) education law and local government.
16 I don't claim to have any answers
17 (inaudible) but I have thought for some time about
18 the issues that you are confronted with. And, as
19 some of you know, I've also written an article some
20 years ago that suggested that one of the ways that
21 we could get through the legislative inaction is
22 through -- is by having a constitutional convention,
23 which at least the track record in New Jersey,
24 although we haven't had many, has what I've viewed
25 as the best potential for really radically changing
88
1 and restructuring the taxes and the problems that we
2 have in this state.
3 Let me talk briefly about what I --
4 about the convention itself, the delegates, some
5 safeguards, and some -- some issues.
6 We don't have initiative and
7 referendum, and I think, because of the current
8 method that we have of changing the constitution,
9 which typically is by a constitutional amendment,
10 one constitution at a time, a convention is much
11 preferable because it allows you to deal with
12 complicated issues; you can bring forward some
13 people with some extraordinary expertise, and the
14 fact that you can deal with multiple issues instead
15 of -- instead of having just one issue at a time.
16 I would think that you should strongly
17 consider, in devising some kind of design for this,
18 that you might think strongly about having an all-
19 in-one proposition, at both -- at two stages:
20 One, in terms of what the Legislature
21 will -- will consider, in terms of your approvals or
22 -- you can't -- you can't demand that of the
23 Legislature, but I think you could recommend that
24 they either adopt your series of proposals all as
25 one. Because I'm very fearful, having served on the
89
1 Judiciary Committee and having looked at this issue,
2 you will -- the Legislature will be picked apart, in
3 terms of what it can do if you don't -- if your
4 proposals aren't considered all as one.
5 And, secondly, I would -- I think you
6 should also recommend that there only be one
7 proposal that's put forward, rather than the series
8 of alternative choices, although that one I'm not as
9 convinced about. But I think that we should try and
10 structure something all together.
11 With respect to delegates, I would --
12 I would recommend to you that they certainly be
13 nonpartisan; that, if you do allow elected officials
14 to be candidates, that they would have to resign
15 from their position at the time that the convention
16 would meet.
17 I think you should have a form of
18 payment in a -- in a way that's not that much, but a
19 public system of funding. And what I would suggest
20 might be with non -- because they're nonpartisan,
21 that the delegates would -- would be able to --
22 there would be a public mailing, where they could
23 put forward their own information, much like
24 sometimes shareholders, I've seen other like
25 trustees who are running for college positions or
90
1 something like that, so that they could -- that they
2 would be able to identify what their expertise, and
3 what they plan to do at the convention.
4 Thirdly, in terms of safeguards, I do
5 think it's important that we make clear that Article
6 I of the state's constitution, the declaration of
7 rights, would not be an area that we would --
8 especially with our due process and equal protection
9 segments of our constitution, not be touched. And I
10 think we do have to recognize, given the long and
11 difficult history with Robinson and Abbot, we have
12 some kind of provision that would protect the
13 special needs kids.
14 And I would draw a distinction from
15 the court's Abbot formula, because I think what
16 needs to be protected are special needs students,
17 not necessarily special needs districts. Obviously,
18 the special need -- thirty-one special need
19 districts have the most special needs kids. But by
20 just protecting the thirty-one, I think you run the
21 risk of still dealing with the wannabes and the very
22 close and the -- and the districts that may no
23 longer be eligible. So there are problems with
24 that. But I do think we should recognize and
25 provide protections for special needs students as a
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1 safeguard.
2 Finally, I would ask you to put all of
3 the spending and taxing issues on the table,
4 especially with respect to taxes. There were some
5 attempts to try to restrict, for example, statewide
6 property taxes. I understand there are some
7 political considerations that favor some areas over
8 others.
9 But I, myself, when I looked at
10 possible solutions to the property tax, I thought
11 perhaps a graduated statewide property tax is at
12 least a candidate for consideration, in terms of
13 alternatives to the existing property tax. Look at
14 certain personalty, as some states do; maybe people
15 who have high-priced luxury cars or some other items
16 could be -- that could be allowed to be considered
17 by the convention.
18 And with respect to spending, I do
19 think, as has been expressed by some other
20 legislators, I don't know how you can not consider
21 issues like caps, and to some degree at least, the
22 educational aspect, as long as you have the
23 safeguard of protecting kids.
24 So those are my general thoughts. And
25 I guess we're under heavy time constraints, so I
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1 would leave it at that. And I wish you the best of
2 luck.
3 MR. VAN HORN: If you'd like to share
4 with the staff, we'd appreciate getting them.
5 SENATOR MARTIN: Thank you.
6 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, sir.
7 (Applause)
8 Pastor McCoombs, and then Pasquale
9 Maffai. Is Pastor McCoombs here? If Pastor
10 McCoombs is not here, then we'll move forward.
11 Pasquale Maffai. Is Pasquale Maffai here? From
12 Trenton? Okay. Well, we can come back if Mr.
13 Maffai returns. George Martch, M-a-r-t-c-h. Then
14 Marvin Reed.
15 Ladies and gentlemen on the task
16 force, we are within two or three of finishing, so
17 just so you know, or four.
18 (Participants confer - not recorded)
19 MR. VAN HORN: I am sure.
20 (Participants confer)
21 MR. VAN HORN: Mr. Martch. Welcome.
22 Thank you.
23 MR. MARTCH: Thank you. Good evening.
24 I, too, want to thank the Governor and the task
25 force for all the efforts you're putting into this
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1 process.
2 My name is George Martch, I'm a West
3 Windsor resident. I had two children that happily
4 went through K through 12 at the public school
5 systems, and we're very glad, we have great
6 services.
7 I, tonight, can see a thread through
8 some of the other recommendations. I view (sic) the
9 constitution seems to have set the thorough and
10 efficient as the standard, the courts on occasion
11 have had to direct specific action where they felt
12 perhaps things were not going on track. And, of
13 course, the legislative function is normally to
14 devise the revenues to -- whether it be at local or
15 state level.
16 As I understand it, the property tax
17 statewide, as a model, might have about sixty
18 percent going to school taxes, about twelve percent
19 to the associated municipal region, about twenty
20 percent to the county, and perhaps eight percent for
21 some other reasons. And that will vary, obviously.
22 My suggestion to the group at this
23 point, I think New Jersey has traditionally used the
24 constitutional conventions to lay the foundation for
25 broad public policy. The current property tax
94
1 system is overdue for restructuring to reduce the
2 dependency of property tax to fund public education.
3 I'll concentrate the rest of my
4 remarks in public education, but I think a mini-
5 model of what I'm about to do for education could be
6 accomplished through the municipal phase, as well.
7 The property tax task force should
8 embrace a design of a convention, so that the
9 convention would be able to produce and enable a
10 commission to establish and maintain the following
11 kinds of evaluations:
12 A thorough and efficient standard for
13 education. A thorough and efficient education
14 should have an associated standard to define the
15 scope of the state's commitment to education K
16 through 12, and to the higher centers of education.
17 The New Jersey Department of Education should
18 publish the prototype for K through 12 that meets
19 thorough and efficient, and that New Jersey will
20 allocate funds to support.
21 A thorough and efficient prototype for
22 delivery is needed. The property tax revenues need
23 to fund the public education of growing to levels
24 that need balance, restructuring is needed, but we
25 need to do so through a model that is designed for
95
1 efficient service delivery, and that would include a
2 model of a representative district, school boards,
3 schools, both secondary and public.
4 That is to say, it's hard to decide
5 what is the appropriate level of spending for
6 thorough and efficient, unless we have a model of
7 what is an effective model for thorough and
8 efficient. And I think a little bit more specific
9 and detailed planning would identify where our --
10 where is the community staying within the bounds of
11 reasonableness, and where does a community seem to
12 be well out of the bounds of reasonableness.
13 And, lastly, if there is such a
14 prototype for the delivery, there be a cost model
15 for that prototype; and, once there is a cost model,
16 we would know what the costs are properly, whether
17 it be in all of the categories that have been
18 mentioned tonight through the education system; and,
19 lastly, a revenue model for the funding of those
20 costs.
21 Now I think that what we're about to
22 do through all of these measures is to solve a
23 problem that's been vexing New Jersey, but it won't
24 go away. And we're going to need a sustaining
25 process, I believe, to have, as long as our guiding
96
1 light is thorough and efficient education, we ought
2 to have a sustaining process which defines it,
3 decides how -- what is enough and when is it too
4 much, what are the costs of the standard, and how
5 would we fund it. And it's a maintenance problem
6 we're going to be needing. Because as the economy
7 and as the state grows, we'll need to address this
8 problem on a periodic basis. Thank you.
9 MR. VAN HORN: Okay. Thank you, sir.
10 Marvin Reed, and then Keith Jones.
11 (Participants confer)
12 MR. REED: Good evening, Mr. Chairman,
13 and members of the commission. I'm Marvin Reed, I
14 recently completed thirteen years as the Mayor of
15 Princeton Borough; and I certainly, as a municipal
16 official, spent a good many nights debating with my
17 colleagues and my constituents property taxes in New
18 Jersey. And even though I came from a district
19 where you might say many people had the ability to
20 pay, we had many who could not. And the very fact
21 that we used property taxes made it very difficult
22 for people, particularly retirees, to continue.
23 As I listen to the night's discussion,
24 I am not sure whether you're establishing a tax
25 convention, a constitutional convention, or a
97
1 substitute legislature. And I'm hopeful that when
2 you make your recommendations, you'll be very
3 precise as to which of the three things we're really
4 doing here.
5 Up until this point, I think most
6 people assume that what you're going to come up with
7 is a system, a mechanism that will reduce
8 residential property taxes in New Jersey. That
9 would appear to mean that, if residential property
10 taxes are reduced, somebody else's property taxes
11 are going to be raised.
12 And I'm sure that the voters would be
13 very happy to delegate the responsibility to these
14 delegates to reduce property taxes, but I don't know
15 who they expect is going to vote to raise property
16 taxes to take their place. And does that mean that
17 the recommendations of this convention or whatever
18 it is, is going to propose a constitutional
19 amendment that the voters will vote on? Is it going
20 to propose a series of referendums, like they did --
21 do in California and other states, to go back, or
22 does the whole thing go back to the Legislature?
23 And I think you're going to have to define that.
24 I think it's very important to define
25 whether this process will include input. Once the
98
1 delegates are convened, will they be holding public
2 hearings like yours? Will there be input coming to
3 them, and a large degree of public participation in
4 the convention itself, or is all that supposed to
5 happen ahead of time?
6 I hope you'll define research and data
7 resources, and you'll define whether there's a staff
8 or some kind of service that will provide these
9 delegates with their data and information.
10 And, finally, what happens to what
11 would be the off-the-table recommendations? If
12 spending is not included in the agenda for this
13 convention, what happens to the thoughts about
14 spending? Do they get recommended back to the
15 Legislature, spending restraints, government
16 reorganizations, other statutory changes? Do they
17 come out of this process and then go back to the
18 Legislature? I trust you'll deal with all of those,
19 and you'll come out with a very good report and
20 recommendation. Thank you very much.
21 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, sir.
22 Keith Jones.
23 MR. JONES: Mr. Chairman and members
24 of this task force, good evening. My name is Keith
25 M. Jones, I am the President of the New Jersey State
99
1 Conference of the NAACP Branches of New Jersey.
2 I begin my testimony by telling you
3 that the New Jersey NAACP at its recent convention
4 in Cherry Hill passed a resolution against the
5 constitutional convention that is being proposed.
6 This NAACP resolution of opposition was unanimous
7 and passionate. The NAACP always wants the voice of
8 the people to be heard, but we are apprehensive
9 about what is motivating those people so adamant
10 about revising our history and our future with this
11 constitutional convention.
12 The New Jersey NAACP's position
13 against this constitutional convention reflects a
14 strongly held belief in New Jersey's African-
15 American community that the quest for equalized
16 funding in public education is the way to ensure the
17 highest standard for all of our state's students.
18 We believe that, regardless of where families
19 reside, all children, black and white, deserve the
20 same educational opportunities.
21 The New Jersey NAACP's feeling of
22 disappointment, if not betrayal, regarding this
23 property tax constitutional convention are unique.
24 Let me explain.
25 The constitutional convention, which
100
1 promises to relieve the property tax burden on New
2 Jersey by reducing our financial commitment to
3 public education, is being proposed during the
4 fiftieth anniversary of the commemoration of Brown
5 v. Board of Education. In 1954, the NAACP won this
6 landmark Supreme Court decision, which not only
7 outlawed racial segregation in public education, but
8 it entrenched in the fabric of American society the
9 concept of equality in education. The victory of
10 Brown and the equity ethic that it created also tore
11 down barriers throughout the public sector for
12 women, and all cultural and ethnic groups.
13 And Brown commemorations throughout
14 the United States, the New Jersey NAACP has been so
15 very proud to discuss not just the legacy of Brown,
16 but the future of Abbot v. Burke -- Abbot v. Burke,
17 that New Jersey has been the role model in this
18 nation's quest for equal opportunity in education.
19 Abbot is perhaps the oldest and
20 clearly the most successful school funding equity
21 mandate in the country. The implementation of Abbot
22 speaks to the reliable social consciousness of the
23 great State of New Jersey.
24 Now I see that I'm running out of time
25 -- time, so let me try to bring to closure by saying
101
1 that, as a veteran administrator in New Jersey's
2 criminal justice system, I ask you to see the wisdom
3 of paying for the hopelessness of education. We pay
4 now or we pay later. We pay for a thorough and
5 efficient education, or we pay for a thoroughly
6 depressing and sporadically efficient prison system.
7 The choice is ours. We pay now or we pay later.
8 There is enormous political temptation
9 in catering to the demands of those who would see
10 our state government retreat from its commitment to
11 provide what the State Supreme Court has ruled in
12 upholding the thorough and efficient requirement in
13 public education. The resourcefulness (sic) and
14 diligent legislators of this great state must find
15 another solution to this problem of high property
16 taxes. We cannot breach the contract that we have
17 had with generations of New Jersey school children,
18 guaranteeing them a thorough and efficient
19 education. Therefore, the New Jersey NAACP could
20 not support any property tax constitutional
21 convention that did not make the thorough and
22 efficient clause non-negotiable.
23 In closing, I remind this panel that
24 these hearings have all been scheduled away from
25 urban centers of our state. Further, majority
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1 membership of this panel reflects a white, suburban
2 interest and focus.
3 I do have a full text of my remarks, I
4 will present them for your review, and we will be in
5 communication.
6 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you. I welcome
7 that.
8 MR. JONES: Thank you.
9 (End of Tape No. 2, Side A)
10 (Beginning of Tape No. 2, Side B)
11 MR. VAN HORN: -- Mr. Maffai will be
12 our last witness for this evening.
13 MR. MAFFAI: (Inaudible - not
14 recorded). My name is Pasquale Maffai, M-a-f-f-a-i,
15 and I appreciate this opportunity to speak before
16 the task force group this evening.
17 In reading the invitation I received
18 from the Governor's Office, I note that the purpose
19 of this convention is to provide the opportunity to
20 overhaul and reform New Jersey's tax system. So I'm
21 wondering about some of the remarks I've heard
22 presented by other speakers.
23 A good number of presenters did
24 highlight the importance of good education and their
25 own personal experiences. And I, myself, must say
103
1 that a good education, I believe, has made a
2 difference in my life and in my happiness in what I
3 do.
4 So I was quite dismayed when I heard
5 remarks regarding dismantling the public school
6 system or evaluating the school systems of New
7 Jersey. I do not think it's the function of the
8 task force to evaluate any of the departments or
9 services of the government, but rather to focus on
10 the task assigned by the governor to overhaul New
11 Jersey's tax system. The function of evaluation
12 should be assigned to other groups in other
13 settings.
14 And, therefore, I would like to
15 suggest my own recommendation, which is that careful
16 consideration be given to the educational program in
17 all the school districts, so that there will be
18 adequate funding to our quality education. Thank
19 you.
20 MR. VAN HORN: Thank you, sir.
21 (Applause)
22 MR. VAN HORN: I want to thank the --
23 all the members of the audience and those who
24 testified for coming out this evening, we very much
25 appreciate your input and your patience and your
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1 civility. And we will be moving forward.
2 As I said, you can check our progress
3 by going to the website, where all the material that
4 we are receiving will be made available as much as
5 possible, and of course any of the reports that we
6 issue will be eventually issued that way. Again, if
7 you want to submit written testimony to us, we'd be
8 happy to receive it.
9 And, ladies and gentlemen, unless
10 there's any other business, I would adjourn this
11 evening, and we'll reconvene on October 19th at the
12 Blackwood Campus of Camden County College at two
13 o'clock.
14 (Proceedings adjourned)
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1 C E R T I F I C A T I O N
2
3 I, Coleen Rand, do hereby certify that
4 the foregoing transcript of proceedings by the New
5 Jersey Property Tax Relief Task Force, recorded on
6 audiotape on October 6, 2004, is a true and accurate
7 non-compressed transcript of the proceedings to the
8 best of my knowledge and ability.
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12 Coleen Rand
13 For Guy Renzi & Associates
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