0001
 1              STATE OF NEW JERSEY 
       DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
 2                        
 3                     - - - 
 4   DIVISION OF ENVIRONMENTAL SAFETY AND HEALTH
 5   
 6   IN RE:  New Jersey Radiological Emergency 
             Response Plan for Nuclear Power Plants 
 7   
 8   
 9   
     HELD AT:  Ocean County Administration Building 
10             101 Hooper Avenue
               Toms River, NJ
11   
12                      - - -
13   
14   IN ATTENDANCE:
15   JILL LIPOTI, PUBLIC HEARING OFFICER, DIRECTOR 
     OF THE DIVISION OF ENVIRONMENTAL SAFETY AND 
16   HEALTH 
17   THOMAS SCARDINO, SERGEANT FIRST CLASS, NEW     
     JERSEY DIVISION OF STATE POLICE 
18   
     PAUL BALDAUF, DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL 
19   PROTECTION 
20   JEFF WINEGAR, RESPONSE COORDINATOR FOR THE 
     DEPARTMENT'S OPERATIONS PROGRAM FOR EMERGENCY 
21   PREPAREDNESS AND RESPONSE
22   JERRY RENNER, SERGEANT FIRST CLASS, NEW     
     JERSEY DIVISION OF STATE POLICE 
23   
24   
25   
0002
 1   HELD ON:     Tuesday, July 20, 2010
 2   
 3   
 4   
     REPORTED BY:   Justin Davis, Professional     
 5                  Court Reporter
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                       - - - 
15   
             CLASS ACT REPORTING AGENCY 
16   
         Registered Professional Reporters
17   
     1420 Walnut Street         133H Gaither Drive
18   
     Suite 1200                 Mt. Laurel, NJ 08054
19   
     Philadelphia, PA 19103      856-235-5108
20   
     215-928-9760
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0003
 1               (Whereupon, the proceeding 
 2                commenced at 7:02 p.m.)
 3            MS. LIPOTI:  Good evening.  My name is 
 4   Jill Lipoti.  I'm the director of the Division of 
 5   Environment Safety and Health within the New Jersey 
 6   Department of Environmental Protection.  I'll be 
 7   the hearing officer this evening.  The purpose of 
 8   the hearing is to receive testimony, comments and 
 9   questions regarding the adequacy and effectiveness 
10   of the New Jersey Radiological Emergency Response 
11   Plan for nuclear power plants.  
12            In order that the hearing can be properly 
13   documented, these proceedings are being recorded by 
14   a certified shorthand reporter.  Everyone attending 
15   the meeting is asked to sign the attendance sheet 
16   before leaving.  The attendance sheets are really 
17   for us, they're used to update the Bureau of 
18   Nuclear Engineering's mailing list for future 
19   public hearings.  And if there are any questions 
20   that we can't answer, we send a response document 
21   and that's the address we use, so that's why we ask 
22   you to sign in.  
23            Public notice of this hearing was 
24   published in the New Jersey Register on June 7th 
25   and June 21, 2010.  In addition, public notice was 
0004
 1   published in the Asbury Park Press from July 13th 
 2   to July 19, 2010 and the Beach Haven Times, July 
 3   7th and July 14, 2010.  Copies of the public notice 
 4   for the three hearings were mailed in June to all 
 5   of the people who attended last year's hearing.  
 6            The hearing will proceed as follows:  I'll 
 7   provided a brief background on why we are 
 8   conducting the hearing, then I'll introduce the 
 9   panel members and ask them to briefly describe the 
10   role of their organization in nuclear emergency 
11   preparedness and response, and finally I'll open 
12   the hearing for comments and questions from the 
13   public.  
14            The New Jersey Radiation Accident Response 
15   Act requires that the Department of Environmental 
16   Protection, in cooperation with the New Jersey 
17   Division of State Police, conduct public hearings 
18   to take comments on and address questions relevant 
19   to the adequacy and effectiveness of the New Jersey 
20   Radiological Emergency Response Plan for Nuclear 
21   Power Plants.  
22            These public hearings are held annually in 
23   each of the three counties affected by the plan, 
24   Ocean County for Oyster Creek Nuclear Generating 
25   Station and Salem and Cumberland Counties for the 
0005
 1   Salem Unit 1, Salem Unit 2 and Hope Creek Nuclear 
 2   Generating Station.  
 3            We are here tonight to listen to your 
 4   questions and comments on New Jersey's Nuclear 
 5   Emergency Response Plan.  Comments on more general 
 6   nuclear power issues or issues that relate to 
 7   licensing and regulatory matters at nuclear power 
 8   plants are not within the purview of this meeting 
 9   and hence are not appropriate and hence will not be 
10   addressed.  
11            The purpose of the plan is to coordinate 
12   and implement an immediate and comprehensive 
13   response at the state, county and municipal levels 
14   to a radiological emergency associated with any 
15   nuclear power plant affecting the State of New 
16   Jersey.  Copies of the plan are available for 
17   public inspection at the Salem County Emergency 
18   Management Office in Mannington Township, the 
19   Cumberland County Office of Emergency Management in 
20   Bridgeton and the Ocean County office of Emergency 
21   Management in Berkeley Township and the New Jersey 
22   Office of Emergency Management in West Trenton and 
23   the public libraries in Salem, Cumberland and Ocean 
24   counties.  And we have a copy right there on the 
25   table.  
0006
 1            Now, I'd like to introduce the members of 
 2   the panel Sergeant First Class Tom Scardino and 
 3   Mr. Jerry Renner are representing the New Jersey 
 4   Division of State Police.  Sergeant Scardino is the 
 5   assistant unit head of the Radiological Emergency 
 6   Response Planning and Technical Unit and Mr. Renner 
 7   is the lead off-site planner for the Radiological 
 8   Emergency Response Planning and Technical Unit.  
 9            Mr. Paul Baldauf is representing the New 
10   Jersey Department of Environmental Protection.  
11   Mr. Baldauf is the assistant director of the 
12   Radiation Protection and Release Prevention 
13   Program.  
14            Representing the New Jersey Department of 
15   Health and Senior Services, is Mr. Jeff Winegar.  
16   Mr. Winegar is the Response Coordinator for the 
17   Department's Operations Program for Emergency 
18   Preparedness and response.  So if questions arise 
19   concerning the responsibilities of the Department 
20   of Health and Senior Services I will call on him 
21   for a response.  
22            Now, I'll ask Sergeant Scardino to briefly 
23   describe the role of State Police.  
24            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  Good evening, 
25   everyone.  For the record, my name is Thomas 
0007
 1   Scardino.  I'm a Sergeant First Class and I'm 
 2   representing the State Office of Emergency 
 3   Management within the Division of State Police.  
 4            Our office, as you may know, has the 
 5   responsibility for administering and implementing 
 6   the Radiological Emergency Response Plan for 
 7   incidents at nuclear power plants in New Jersey.  
 8   In addition to preparation of the radiological 
 9   emergency plans, the New Jersey State Police is the 
10   lead agency in the following functional areas:  
11            Notification and communication, command 
12   and coordination, protective actions, which include 
13   evacuation, shelter-in-place, access control, food, 
14   water and milk control.  Parallel actions also 
15   include traffic control, decontamination, exposure 
16   control, mass care, law enforcement, fire control, 
17   public health and re-entry, return and recovery.  
18            For the record, I would like to introduce 
19   the deputy unit supervisor of the Radiological 
20   Emergency Response Planning and Technical Unit, 
21   Sergeant First Class Steven Morrison, who is seated 
22   in the back of the room.  To his right is Mr. Jerry 
23   Renner, the Oyster Creek Site Specialist, also with 
24   the Radiological Emergency Response Planning and 
25   Technical Unit.  To the far end on the left is 
0008
 1   Mr. Alan Smith, senior planner and site specialist 
 2   for the Salem Hope Creek location.  Thank you.  
 3            MS. LIPOTI:  Thank you, Tom.  Now I will 
 4   ask Mr. Baldauf to briefly describe the role of the 
 5   Department in the plan.
 6            MR. BALDAUF:  Thank you.  Good evening, 
 7   everyone.  My name is Paul Baldauf.  I'm the 
 8   assistant director of the Radiation Protection 
 9   Release Prevention at the DEP.  I'll briefly 
10   discuss the role of the Department of Environmental 
11   Protection in New Jersey's Radiological Emergency 
12   Response Plan.  
13            The New Jersey Radiological Response Plan 
14   includes the plan, standard operating procedures 
15   and annexes.  The plan identifies all responsible 
16   state agencies and counties and their specific 
17   roles in the event of a nuclear emergency.  It is 
18   based on five primary functions that outline the 
19   actions to be performed in the event of a 
20   radiological emergency at one of the four nuclear 
21   power plants in New Jersey or a plant in a 
22   neighboring state.  
23            These actions are:  Notification and 
24   communication, accident assessment, command and 
25   coordination, protective actions and parallel 
0009
 1   actions.  Since agency roles and responsibilities 
 2   don't change often, the plan essentially does not 
 3   change.  The standard operating procedures are 
 4   specific instructions and guidelines used by each 
 5   agency when performing their specific duties.  
 6            Procedures are reviewed and tested 
 7   annually and revised whenever necessary in order to 
 8   enhance emergency response.  The annexes, A and B, 
 9   are the Radiological Emergency Response Plan for 
10   the Salem, Hope Creek and Oyster Creek nuclear 
11   generating stations.  
12            Respectively, each annex describes a 
13   planning basis and concept of operation for each of 
14   the municipalities within a 10-mile emergency 
15   planning zone around each site.  Under the New 
16   Jersey Radiation Accident Response Act, the 
17   Department of Environmental Protection has the lead 
18   role in accident assessment and control of food, 
19   water and milk following the incident.  
20            Accident assessment involves two separate 
21   analyses, an engineering analysis of the event at 
22   the plant as it unfolds and an analysis of the 
23   amount of radiation to which the public may be 
24   exposed to in the event of a release.  
25            Depending on the severity of the event, 
0010
 1   the Department provides protective action and 
 2   recommendations to the governor, who will make a 
 3   final decision on actions to be implemented to 
 4   protect public health and safety.  Protective 
 5   action and recommendations for the public may 
 6   include the administration of potassium iodide, 
 7   evacuation, sheltering and access control within 
 8   the affected or potentially affected area.  
 9            The Act also specifies that the Department 
10   develop and implement a comprehensive monitoring 
11   strategy that includes the daily monitoring of 
12   levels of radioactivity in the environment.  The 
13   Department also provides public health, safety and 
14   technical guidance with respect to the preparation 
15   and implementation of the plan.  
16            The Department's final responsibility 
17   under the Act is to conduct, in cooperation with 
18   the State Police, public hearings annually in each 
19   designated county to determine the adequacy and 
20   effectiveness of the plan.  Members of my staff who 
21   are here from the DEP, so if you haven't met them 
22   or spoke to them, this may help you.  Patrick 
23   Mulligan, who is the bureau chief of nuclear 
24   engineering; Rich Pitti (ph), from our engineering 
25   group; Karen Decelo from our environmental group; 
0011
 1   Carol Sheppard; Paul Schwarz; Anne Fauk (ph).  
 2   Thank you.
 3            MS. LIPOTI:  We'll now proceed with the 
 4   public's questions and comments.  Those individuals 
 5   who wish to speak should complete a speaker 
 6   registration card and hand it to one of the staff.  
 7   I'll call the speaker's names in the same order 
 8   that I receive the registration cards.  Be sure to 
 9   print clearly so that I can read your name 
10   properly.  
11            When I call your name, come forward to the 
12   microphone, face the panel, you can sit down, make 
13   yourself comfortable.  Before you begin your 
14   comments, please state and spell your name for the 
15   reporter.  Speakers will be limited to -- we 
16   usually say five minutes, but I'm pretty generous.  
17            If time remains after everyone has had a 
18   chance to speak, I'll invite additional comments 
19   from those individuals who have already.  In 
20   fairness to the speaker and in order that we can 
21   make the best use of this time, I just ask the 
22   cooperation of the audience.  
23            Comments from the audience will only delay 
24   the proceedings and obstruct our ability to hear 
25   and accurately record the speaker's statements.  
0012
 1   Again, I would like to emphasize that we are here 
 2   to listen to your questions and comments on the New 
 3   Jersey Nuclear Emergency Response Plan, and 
 4   comments on the more general nuclear power plant 
 5   issues that relate to licensing and regulatory 
 6   matters are not within our purview or the purview 
 7   of this meeting.  Thank you and I'll proceed to the 
 8   first commenter, Mark Dykoff.
 9            MR. DYKOFF:  Good evening.  Thank you for 
10   this opportunity.  First, I want to begin by saying 
11   that Oyster Creek is a great neighbor with Lacey 
12   Township, they spare no effort in working with our 
13   local law enforcement in every aspect.  At last 
14   year's emergency response meeting, the issue of the 
15   evacuation route through Forked River Beach -- from 
16   Forked River Beach to the Finninger Farm property 
17   we discussed.  
18            At the time, this route was a semi-cleared 
19   road made up of broken asphalt.  Since then, thanks 
20   to a partnership between Exelon and Ocean County, 
21   this road has been re-paved, and thanks to a bridge 
22   replacement, it exists as a bypass road.  
23            I have received tremendous response from 
24   the residents of Forked River Beach that they would 
25   like this road to remain for future evacuation 
0013
 1   purposes.  As part of the CAFRA permit, there is a 
 2   stipulation that once the bridge is open, part of 
 3   the asphalt will be required to be broken up.  This 
 4   will be a waste of a perfectly good evacuation 
 5   route.  
 6            The route will be beneficial, not only in 
 7   the case of a radiological release, but also a 
 8   flood, a hurricane, a storm or in case there is a 
 9   future disaster on the Forked River Beach.  As I 
10   said, the township, in conjunction with Exelon and 
11   the county, are seeking a revision of the CAFRA 
12   permit.  
13            I would ask members of the panel to 
14   request permission from proper channels to get 
15   written support, along with the township, to have 
16   this evacuation route remain.  As I said, the vast 
17   majority of residents I have spoken to, I represent 
18   have requested that this stay that way.  Thank you.
19            MS. LIPOTI:  Would you mind if we asked 
20   you a few questions?  
21            MR. DYKOFF:  Sure.
22            MS. LIPOTI:  Who applied for the CAFRA     
23   permit originally?  
24            MR. DYKOFF:  The county applied for the 
25   CAFRA permit originally.
0014
 1            MS. LIPOTI:  So it's the county.  
 2            And is the county now applying for the 
 3   revisions to the permit?  
 4            MR. DYKOFF:  The county is going to apply, 
 5   take the lead in the revision, along with the 
 6   county and Exelon.
 7            MS. LIPOTI:  Thank you.  Are there any 
 8   other questions?  
 9            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  I would just like to 
10   make a comment, Jill, in that we meet on a regular 
11   basis with the personnel from the security force at 
12   the plant as well as emergency management officials 
13   in the county and in Lacey and Ocean Townships 
14   regarding this supplemental evacuation route, if 
15   that's what we want to describe it as.  
16            And we feel it's valuable in that for both 
17   egress and ingress to locations for emergency 
18   responders, if the bridges are out at the facility, 
19   emergency vehicles can gain access to the site 
20   through that newly created road that was paved.  
21            However, I don't know what the 
22   stipulations are on the environmental impact on the 
23   road, so I can't say anything in that regard, but 
24   we feel that any road that would provide ingress 
25   and egress for evacuations or getting responders to 
0015
 1   the site is a beneficial tool for us.
 2            MR. DYKOFF:  Just let me add that the plan 
 3   that we have and we would like to see happen is, of 
 4   course, once the bridge is open, we would like to 
 5   barricade both ends of that road and it would only 
 6   be used in case of emergency, so I just wanted to 
 7   make that clear; okay.  Thank you.
 8            MS. LIPOTI:  Alison Lemke.
 9            MS. LEMKE:  Hello, Alison Lemke, 
10   L-E-M-K-E.  I'm a Forked River resident and Lacey 
11   Rail Trail Environment Committee vice chair.  Three 
12   quick subjects, the emergency planning for Oyster 
13   Creek generating station, the information flier 
14   that gets sent out into the community, who writes 
15   these?  
16            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  That one in particular 
17   is drafted by Exelon.
18            MS. LEMKE:  Drafted by Exelon?  
19            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  Yes.  The State Office 
20   of Emergency Management produces something similar, 
21   it's to the right there on the table.
22            MS. LEMKE:  Mr. Baldauf, I don't know if I 
23   have your name correct.  
24            MR. BALDAUF:  Yes.
25            MS. LEMKE:  It says that the plans are 
0016
 1   revised whether necessary, but the 2009, 2010 and 
 2   2011 plan should have be revised to reflect that 
 3   the evacuation route, particularly bus route 1B, is 
 4   not effective because the bridge is out.  And I 
 5   commented on this last year, told you it was going 
 6   to happen, stuff goes out and the evacuation bus 
 7   route, that bus will end up in the Forked River.  
 8            So the plan that the bridge replacement 
 9   project was supposed to take five months now they 
10   are looking at a year.  We knew that, I think the 
11   county did, too.  And the evacuation bus route does 
12   not exist.  We did send a letter to the state 
13   police in August and also the Ocean County 
14   Sheriff's Office last August reflecting that the 
15   Beach Boulevard and the bridge is a critical part 
16   of the established emergency response claim area 1 
17   of the Office of Emergency Management.  
18            The county was opposing to completely shut 
19   down the bridge and put in a temporary roadway 
20   through Finninger Farm.  The road wraps around the 
21   radioactive -- and apparently there is more 
22   equipment in this area, which is my understanding.  
23   According to information that was put out this 
24   evening, there is now another radiological 
25   monitoring unit on that property, adds an 
0017
 1   additional one mile of travel in one direction.  
 2            So in the event of a nuclear accident 
 3   requiring the evacuation, the counties alternative 
 4   evacuation route would add an additional mile of 
 5   travel, leave the 1,700 property owners, which are 
 6   stuck on that peninsula to the north gate entrance, 
 7   ground zero.  
 8            And the evacuation bus route B would be 
 9   extending an additional two miles, but then the 
10   buses would have to first travel towards the plant, 
11   get on the Finninger Farm windy unlit road, pick up 
12   the residents, turn around and come back.  Now, the 
13   bridge project has already begun and the road is 
14   there, but let's look at the road itself.  
15            Last April, Birdsall Engineering, who is 
16   the engineer for not only Exelon, but the county 
17   and also the township, sent a letter to Ocean 
18   County Engineering concerning the width of the 
19   road.  Ocean County Engineering only wanted the 
20   road to be 18-feet wide, but that only applies, 
21   according to safety standards, if you only have 200 
22   cars a day using it.  They have over 8,000 cars a 
23   day using it, and that would require a 24-foot-wide 
24   road.  
25            So Birdsall Engineering sent a letter to 
0018
 1   Frank Barintino (ph) saying, you know what, we have 
 2   concerns about this because you want 18 feet and we 
 3   are recommending 24.  Well, they compromised and 
 4   most of the roadway is 20-feet wide.  There have 
 5   been multiple accidents on that road.  It does not 
 6   meet safety standards, the road should have been 
 7   24-feet wide.  
 8            Now you have the evacuation route, 
 9   whatever you want to call it, the one-way in 
10   one-way out, and it is substandard and I have a 
11   copy of the letter.  So that's my one issue.  
12            I know Mr. Dykoff just testified that they 
13   want that road to remain and he is our township 
14   committee man.  And I've watched the township for 
15   years plan to develop Finninger Farm, which is a 
16   600-acre bay front critical habitat area.  
17            The township says that they will gate it, 
18   you know, and they wouldn't use it, but you may 
19   want to ask the township why they have begun the 
20   process of rezoning the area from a PA5 to a PA2 if 
21   they have no intentions of using it, and that is on 
22   record with the cross exemptance plan.  
23            They wanted to rezone that area with a PA2 
24   with new report attached to, it they just threw 
25   that in under the radar, by the way, make this a 
0019
 1   PA2 with no supporting documentation.  I've written 
 2   letters about it saying red flag, red flag, they 
 3   want to develop Finninger Farm.  
 4            I know that your subject matter is 
 5   emergency preparedness, but I do need to tell you 
 6   that the township plans to develop Finninger Farm.  
 7   That's why they want the road to remain, that's why 
 8   they fought so hard not to have that alternate 
 9   bridge plan instead, they wanted to have that road 
10   put in.  Now that the road is there, the CAFRA 
11   permit says that the road has to come up because 
12   it's critical habitat, the area has to be 
13   re-vegetated.  
14            And we have heard from Tom Mackie (ph) in 
15   writing three times that they do need to comply 
16   with the CAFRA permitted conditions.  And if the 
17   township wants the road, they have to submit a 
18   whole new CAFRA permit in order to get that done 
19   because that is the case.  It has been confirmed by 
20   John Welsh and Tom Mackie in writing, three times.  
21            So the township wants what they want why 
22   they want it, but they need to go through the 
23   proper channels and submit for an entire new CAFRA 
24   permit.  It can be done, there is no rush.  Please 
25   do not let them develop Finninger Farm.  There are 
0020
 1   bald eagles documented on site and numerous 
 2   other -- you know, the project has gone on so long, 
 3   this road is being used and peregrines are being 
 4   smashed along the road.  
 5            It wasn't supposed to go on this long and 
 6   now those silt fences up on the side that are 
 7   supposed to be stopping the erosion, those are 
 8   falling down and things are getting stuck in there 
 9   and dying a slow death.  We go on a regular basis, 
10   lift up the silt fencing and there are things stuck 
11   there, it's just a sin, it really is.  
12            Briefly about the tritium.  Again, this is 
13   in your paperwork and there is a tritium release as 
14   you all know.  And according to the DEP, Exelon 
15   will take all necessary actions that the DEP 
16   determines necessary for the protection, health and 
17   safety of the public along with the environment 
18   from and discharge from the site.  
19            I'm not sure if you are aware that Oyster 
20   Creek is not hooked up to the Lacey MUA for their 
21   water supply, they use water from on-site wells, 
22   it's their potable waters.  And they did talk to 
23   the MUA about two years ago saying they have a 
24   copper issue with their water, we want to hook up 
25   to you.  
0021
 1            They've gone through the channels, they 
 2   had to get a permit and to lay the pipe, but they 
 3   haven't done it, so now they have a tritium leak 
 4   and they may have another tritium leak.  And I 
 5   don't know which way the water runs there because 
 6   between the pull of the plant and the natural water 
 7   plume and the pumping action of the plume does tend 
 8   to go in directions.  
 9            So why aren't we hooked up to a municipal 
10   water supply?  They are pumping from on-site and 
11   there is obviously tritium from two different 
12   aquifers in two different sites.  So it is just a 
13   concern of public safety and welfare.  And these 
14   are my issues.  Thank you for your time.  
15            MS. LIPOTI:  Thank you, Ms. Lemke.  
16            Do you want to respond to any of the 
17   comments?  
18            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  Ms. Lemke, good 
19   points.  I would just like to state to you and to 
20   the audience that we have met several times with 
21   the county engineers that are running that project 
22   and the township and the county emergency 
23   management officials collectively and we have 
24   measures in place should we need to stage an 
25   evacuation.  
0022
 1            It would be done early on in the process 
 2   for that particular area, since there is a 
 3   diversion towards the plant, as you mentioned 
 4   correctly, roughly a mile down the road where they 
 5   normally would be exiting out of.  We have taken 
 6   provisions for that and we expect the road project 
 7   to be done somewhere in the September/October time 
 8   frame is what the engineers have indicated to us.  
 9            And as you correctly mentioned, the bridge 
10   is out, there is nothing we can do with that now, 
11   we just have to plan for it accordingly.
12            MS. LIPOTI:  Paul, do you want to address 
13   the tritium issue?  
14            MR. BALDAUF:  Yes, just a quick response.  
15   I really don't have any information on the 
16   connection to Lacey MUA, but I can tell you about 
17   the on-site wells are tested on regular frequency 
18   and there has been no indication of tritium 
19   contamination in those wells.
20            MS. LEMKE:  I'm aware that they are 
21   monitoring and they are putting in more monitoring 
22   wells.  And they are monitoring right to the point 
23   where some monitoring wells will show something 
24   back, so it is a proactive thing.  They went to the 
25   MUA to get hooked up, so why not do it?  That's 
0023
 1   just my question.
 2            MR. BALDAUF:  Understood.
 3            MS. LIPOTI:  I just want to add one more 
 4   thing and that is that the wells for the plant, 
 5   which we use for drinking water, are in the 
 6   Kirkwood Aquifer where no tritium has been detected 
 7   in any of the Kirkwood wells.  And the new wells 
 8   for monitoring are into the Cohansey Aquifer, which 
 9   is at some levels above the Kirkwood.  
10            Tritium is not really part of this 
11   hearing, but I would just urge you if you want to 
12   continue to follow the issue, then we have a lot of 
13   information on our website about that.  
14            On the issue of the CAFRA permit, that 
15   will come before the Department.  Tom Mackie is the 
16   director of that group and land use and I'll talk 
17   to him about it.  Thank you for your comments.  
18            Number three, Jeffrey Brown.  
19            MR. BROWN:  Thank you very much.  My name 
20   is Jeffrey Brown, B-R-O-W-N.  I live in Brick.  
21   This, I think, is my 7th hearing, so I'm here to 
22   bear witness to my judgment that I think it's both 
23   immoral and absurd that we have an energy source 
24   that requires an evacuation plan when we have 
25   alternatives.  
0024
 1            Yesterday, I sat in by phone on the NRC 
 2   hearings regarding the proposed changes to our 
 3   emergency preparedness training and that raised a 
 4   few questions or comments for me to make this 
 5   evening.  One, I was somewhat encouraged by the 
 6   fact that they are finally including hostile action 
 7   events in their planning because this is what we 
 8   have been saying since 9/11, that it seems 
 9   preposterous not to take terrorism into account.  
10            My major concern is not a one-time release 
11   of radiation, but a sustained event that would take 
12   days or weeks or perhaps months to mitigate, if at 
13   all, so I was glad to see that.  So I'm wondering 
14   what assumptions have been made and what services 
15   and utilities will be cut off if there is increased 
16   sheltering in place?  
17            For example, will people have access to 
18   electricity, to natural gas, water/sewer treatment 
19   plants, gasoline stations, the ability to get money 
20   out of banks?  I'm wondering when you looked at 
21   sheltering in place, what is likely to be going on 
22   around us, what we would be able to access?  
23            Secondly, I was wondering in terms of the 
24   police.  I understand that there is radiation 
25   protection gear in police vehicles for the first 
0025
 1   responders, so I'm wondering how well will the 
 2   first responders be protected?  Particularly those 
 3   who are off duty and called into service, do you 
 4   think there is adequate equipment and gear to 
 5   protect all of the people that are standing on 
 6   corners and keep us moving in the certain 
 7   direction?  
 8            And thirdly, I would like to urge the 
 9   Department to help us move the idea of thinning out 
10   the fuel pool because this is the greatest source 
11   of danger that we face.  We have a fuel pool that 
12   is packed solid, it is beyond what it was 
13   originally designed for.  
14            There is some dry gas storage, you can see 
15   them from satellite photographs.  If I was a 
16   terrorist, I would know right where to aim.  And it 
17   seems to me, I remember a report from Robert 
18   Alvarez a couple of years ago, which talked about 
19   how we can significantly reduce the dangers if you 
20   would thin out the fuel pools and put spent fuel 
21   into dry casts.  
22            However, that would also not just be 
23   sitting out there in a parking lot, but to have 
24   some kind of hardened on-site storage.  So I would 
25   like to see what the process would be for us to try 
0026
 1   to move that agenda forward, that we might try do 
 2   something cooperatively with Exelon and with the 
 3   township to make it safer for all of us.  
 4            It's quite clear that Yucca Mountain 
 5   probably still won't get built even with the 
 6   lawsuits, and we are not going to have a deep 
 7   geologic depository for a long time.  At a recent 
 8   exit meeting, former Mayor Parker was saying he 
 9   didn't like the fact of having all of this nuclear 
10   waste in Lacey forever.  It is going to be for a 
11   couple hundred years at the rate they are going.  
12   So I would like to see if we can make that a less 
13   dangerous situation.  Thank you.
14            MS. LIPOTI:  Thank you.  
15            Do you want to address some of those 
16   topics?  
17            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  I appreciate your 
18   comments.  Mr. Brown mentioned hostile action 
19   scenarios being incorporated into the rep planning, 
20   if you will, as an initiator for a release.  And 
21   you are correct, we have incorporated       
22   hostile-action based drills into the plan.  
23            It involves bringing law enforcement into 
24   the loop, if you will, and responding to an action, 
25   a criminal action at the plant as well as 
0027
 1   protecting the public through whatever protective 
 2   action decision is made.  We have exercised both 
 3   sites, Oyster Creek and Salem Hope Creek, and both 
 4   went very successfully.  
 5            We've had observers from NRC and FEMA 
 6   during this process and they were very pleased with 
 7   our results.  Jerry Renner, in the back, our 
 8   off-site planner for Oyster Creek, took it upon 
 9   himself many years ago to start a dialogue between 
10   local law enforcement and emergency management and 
11   plant security and through a monthly security 
12   briefing meeting with all of the players involved.  
13            So that was a very good initiative that 
14   was started way beyond NRC and FEMA adopting 
15   hostile-action-based scenarios into the rep plan.  
16   So that is being incorporated into our rep 
17   planning.  Right now, we anticipate that NRC and 
18   FEMA will mandate that it be part of the exercise 
19   cycle eventually.  We don't know when that proposal 
20   will be finalized, so we are waiting for that 
21   portion.
22            MR. BROWN:  Could you say something about 
23   what is going to be available to us if we do have 
24   shelter-in-place and that scenario?  
25            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  Right.  The second 
0028
 1   half of your question was what services would be 
 2   available to the public?  As you heard on the 
 3   teleconference, one of the scenarios in the 
 4   protective action decision making is the    
 5   shelter-in-place during a hostile action scenario 
 6   because the terrorists could be mingling in with 
 7   the residents and we want the first responders to 
 8   be able to get to the location and so forth.  So 
 9   there are many reasons why we would want to       
10   shelter-in-place.  
11            Services would be dependant upon the 
12   scenario.  If it is a necessity, we may have to 
13   send a law enforcement representative with you to 
14   get needed medications or whatever at the 
15   drugstore, for example, or at your doctor's 
16   office.  So that kind of scenario is dependant and 
17   based on need.  
18            Obviously, we are not going to let folks 
19   exit their homes and wonder around just to buy a 
20   pack of gum, for example, but it would be dependant 
21   on the need and the scenario.  So I hope that 
22   answers that portion of your question.  
23            And I think your third point was, are the 
24   first responders, in particular law enforcement, 
25   adequately protected to respond to these?  We have 
0029
 1   stockpiles of radiological dosimetry that we will 
 2   issue out, and we practiced this during the drill.  
 3   And they would become an emergency work crew, just 
 4   like one of the police officers standing to access 
 5   a traffic control post.  So we do have adequate, 
 6   what we call PPE, personal protective equipment, 
 7   including radiological dosimetry for our first 
 8   responders.
 9            MR. BROWN:  So that's pretty much them 
10   being delivered and then being removed?  
11            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  Yes.
12            MR. BROWN:  They would be walking around 
13   in space suits or some sort of total protective 
14   gear?  
15            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  If needed.  Obviously, 
16   tactical operations would be -- your clothing would 
17   basically shield you from contamination almost 
18   effectively as a Tyveck suit, but I would defer to 
19   the Department of Health to introduce their 
20   web-based dosimetry reporting system that they 
21   tested this year, which is encouraging.  
22            MR. WINEGAR:  My name is Jeff Winegar, 
23   representing the Department of Health.  As far as 
24   protecting emergency workers, we've introduced a 
25   new web-based program called DORIS, it stands for 
0030
 1   Dosimetric Radiological Information System.  
 2            And what happens is when, such as the 
 3   state police, if they are at a traffic control 
 4   point, they read their dosimeter every half hour 
 5   and those doses then go to their supervisor and get 
 6   entered on the web-based system.  The web-based 
 7   system actually tabulates the dose that the person 
 8   is getting.  
 9            We use this for all emergency workers 
10   including the BNE field teams.  And what happens is 
11   this tabulates and when it reaches 50 percent of 
12   the 1.25 rim dose, the person's -- it actually 
13   turns yellow and it sends out an E-mail to 
14   everybody that has been entered into the system, 
15   and we monitor that in Trenton.  
16            When it reaches three quarters of that 
17   dose, it turns red.  What we do with this is we see 
18   this E-mail, we get it at our health command center 
19   in Trenton and we can actually call back to the EOC 
20   and the emergency workers can be contacted and they 
21   can try to rotate those guys out, unless they have 
22   to stay there, but at least we're monitoring that 
23   dose.  
24            And we'll keep this data in our system for 
25   like 20 years or so.  So it's a new system and we 
0031
 1   are pretty excited about it as far as protecting 
 2   all of these emergency workers.  
 3            MS. LIPOTI:  Thanks, Jeff.
 4            MR. BALDAUF:  Your last question 
 5   concerning the spent fuel, as I'm sure you are well 
 6   aware, it's not specific or unique to Oyster Creek, 
 7   there is national concern.  There isn't a 
 8   repository right now.  I'm sure you understand the 
 9   issues that were proposed with Yucca Mountain and 
10   where that may or may not go.  
11            I can tell you that the Department and the 
12   state police are tied in very well with the 
13   utilities to know what's there, know the schedule, 
14   know when things are what they are.  Those areas 
15   are monitored, so if there was a release or a 
16   problem, we would know as if there was any other 
17   release at the site.  
18            Unfortunately, it is not a specific New 
19   Jersey issue, it's something that we have to get 
20   worked out nationwide.  Certainly, the opportunity 
21   you have with NRC when they do look at these 
22   issues, we certainly suggest that anyone who has an 
23   opinion or ideas, put them out there for NRC to 
24   comment on them.  
25            Obviously, it is not under our regulatory 
0032
 1   authority, it is NRC.  And as you see, every time 
 2   we go on record with NRC on any of the issues, we 
 3   do post it on the website, so you are aware of our 
 4   opinion, but, please, if you have strong feelings 
 5   like you have expressed over the years, get them to 
 6   NRC, and I know a lot of you have in the past.  
 7            But I think the best thing you can do in a 
 8   case like this is to get your thoughts, ideas, and 
 9   feelings out there.  Whether they are in agreement 
10   with ours or not, that's fine, just get them out 
11   there and express your interests.  They need to 
12   hear from people where they are storing the spent 
13   fuel.  
14            MR. BROWN:  My comment has to do with the 
15   fact that it's a national unresolved issue and we 
16   have an interim possibility to make it less 
17   dangerous.  So would the Department be supportive 
18   of the idea of thinning out the fuel pool reducing 
19   the radiological content, thereby releasing the 
20   possibility of how large a release there would be 
21   if something happens to the fuel pool.
22            MR. BALDAUF:  I think we would have to see 
23   the plan.  Once again, we are not in a regulatory 
24   position with NRC.  They do fill us in on the plans 
25   and ask us to comment at times just to get our 
0033
 1   input, but we are not in a position to say yes or 
 2   no in terms of how they should proceed and how they 
 3   should balance it, too.
 4            MR. BROWN:  Thank you.
 5            MS. LIPOTI:  Paula Gotsch is next.  
 6            MS. GOTSCH:  First, I would like to thank 
 7   the DEP, the Bureau of Nuclear Engineering for 
 8   being at that meeting in Wilmington because I was 
 9   glad to see that we are involved in that.  
10            Generally, I want to say that it was very 
11   disconcerting that there seemed to be a lot of 
12   apologetics going on about, well, we are having 
13   these new regulations, but this is so -- the 
14   thought that this could ever happen is such a rare 
15   occurrence that it was kind of like offhand.  
16            And for all of us that have been through 
17   the BP incident, we all learned that complacency is 
18   the worst thing.  We all get used to there not 
19   having been an accident in a while, so the 
20   regulators it seems are getting complacent, they 
21   are saying, what are the chances.  So that means 
22   that the onus is on you guys.  
23            Our nuclear bureau has a harder time if 
24   they are not taking it seriously.  One of the 
25   things I brought up on the call was they kept 
0034
 1   saying containment failure was very unlikely and I 
 2   pointed out that with this particular design, 
 3   containment failure was thought to be so likely by 
 4   GE that they added the vent pipe so that when 
 5   this -- if the PSI went above 44, they could vent 
 6   the radiation through that vent pipe.  
 7            As Mr. Mulligan explained, they then could 
 8   have control about how much was going out at once 
 9   to keep the pressure.  And my question to them was, 
10   this would create a different scenario than the 
11   ones you've been talking about.  They were talking 
12   about -- they had some test scenarios that they 
13   were saying were what-ifs.  
14            But I said, you haven't seemed to be 
15   addressing what if this particular scenario should 
16   happen that we are getting this release and then 
17   with the wind -- I know there was quite a question 
18   about the new ideas that the way the plume would go 
19   has been re-analyzed for shore areas and it was 
20   very idiosyncratic that those of us who have 
21   nuclear plants on a body of water like the ocean, 
22   Pilgrim is one of them, these currents are changing 
23   rapidly, which presents another problem for you 
24   guys to have to figure that out.  
25            They, at that time, just said and it 
0035
 1   turned out as Randy Sullivan said, if that were to 
 2   happen tody, you've really got a problem there.  
 3   That's a different situation.  I also asked about 
 4   the fuel pool fire because the fuel pool fire is 
 5   something that they would say, oh, that's way on 
 6   the fringe, but it's really not.  If you want to be 
 7   complacent you can say it's on the fringe, but with 
 8   all of these pools being overstacked there is more 
 9   of a risk.
10            A fuel pool fire is a totally different 
11   scenario then because you are not -- a lot of the 
12   basis of this sheltering-in-place means that after 
13   four hours, you can then theoretically start to 
14   move people out of the area because they said that 
15   the worst of the stuff would have gone by then.  
16            And they have a very, sort of Orwellian 
17   way of saying that the resource would have 
18   dissipated, something like that, the source would 
19   have dissipated.  But with a fuel pool fire, you 
20   would have a constant, I think, radiation going off 
21   with the smoke and what was going on, from what I 
22   understand from reading Alvarez.  They said that 
23   was what would go under a special circumstance 
24   thing and so they weren't going into that.  
25            So I just want to generally say, I hope 
0036
 1   you guys keep working on the committee, I think 
 2   they need a lot of prodding to get serious.  And I 
 3   really felt coming away that it was just they were 
 4   arranging the chairs on the deck at the Titanic, a 
 5   lot of talk.  
 6            I mean, it's funny to read all of this 
 7   stuff, there are so many acronyms and there is a 
 8   lot of diagrams and charts, but I didn't feel any 
 9   more  secure.  I didn't feel like something was 
10   going to happen that was going to make it better.  
11   And I am one of those people who feel that if you 
12   have to have an emergency evacuation plan, that's 
13   not the kind of an energy system we really want at 
14   this point.  I think I had asked Mr. Mulligan most 
15   of my questions from the meeting and he had given 
16   me answers, but I just want to make one final 
17   comment.  
18            Through the E-mails came today a warning 
19   from the Physicians for Social Responsibility that 
20   there is movement afoot in Washington from the 
21   types of bills that are being presented to greatly 
22   reduce the power of the NRC in safety matters, and 
23   it's a real effort to push the nuclear industry to 
24   have more say in what they can do to the point 
25   where NRC won't even be able to stop a plant from 
0037
 1   being built if safety considerations come out in 
 2   the process of building that plant, that they can't 
 3   have a final say.  
 4            In other words, the powers at be that want 
 5   to push this nuclear renaissance so strongly, and 
 6   the lobbyists are really pushing for it, want at 
 7   the same time to lesson NRC control at a time when 
 8   we've had this BP accident and we've learned that 
 9   without these controls, we are really in a mess 
10   here, that the industry can't control these things, 
11   they will do what's good for them.  
12            So, again, I appreciate everything the DEP 
13   does, I appreciate the fact, Jill, that you wrote 
14   the letter for Frida Berryhill, I appreciate that.  
15   And I just think your job is going to get a lot 
16   harder from the way things are going.  
17            I sound like Gloomy Gus, don't I?
18            MS. LIPOTI:  Thank you, Paula.  I just 
19   want to explain to the rest of the members of the 
20   audience, Pat Mulligan chairs a National Committee 
21   for the Conference of Radiation Control Program 
22   Directors on Nuclear Response.  And he has chaired 
23   that committee for a number of years, serving on 
24   the committee as a member for a number of years 
25   before that.  So we are really lucky to have Pat in 
0038
 1   New Jersey.  
 2            He does keep up with all of the national 
 3   issues.  And I'm also going to embarrass Anne who 
 4   is sitting next to him.  Anne Koch chaired a task 
 5   force which gathered information from all of the 
 6   states about press releases that are prepared to be 
 7   used in the event of a nuclear emergency.  
 8            The idea being that we can't guess 
 9   everything that might go into a press release, but 
10   if you have an emergency that happens, you want to 
11   be able to quickly get something out to the press.  
12   So her task group was gathering information all 
13   across the country to look for best practices and 
14   so forth in preparing information for the public.  
15   So now I've embarrassed both of you.
16            MS. GOTSCH:  Thank you all.
17            MS. LIPOTI:  The next speaker is Janet 
18   Tauro.
19            MS. TAURO:  I want to reiterate what Paula 
20   and Jeff said -- sorry, Janet Tauro, T-A-U-R-O, 
21   Brick, New Jersey.  We do, we very much appreciate 
22   the expertise, the professionalism, your 
23   dedication.  
24            With that said, I'd like to ask, when you 
25   are doing the evacuation plan and you are doing the 
0039
 1   scenario, do you build into that a casualty number 
 2   or, you know, an estimated loss of life when you 
 3   make that plan?  
 4            And I know that you had a really good 
 5   drill recently, but in the past there was just -- 
 6   there was a drill that didn't go off as well as 
 7   planned and really it was such an understandable 
 8   thing.  It was just a little bit of human error 
 9   where someone faxed something and there wasn't a 
10   follow-up phone call made or something like that 
11   and two towns weren't notified.  
12            I didn't really -- you know, I saw that as 
13   something that was so understandable and something 
14   that would be so easy to take place because, you 
15   know, we are all human and it's human error and you 
16   can't bash somebody over the head for human error 
17   for making a mistake, but the problem is that when 
18   you are dealing with a nuclear catastrophe, because 
19   it's so catastrophic, you can't have any human 
20   error, you can't.  
21            You know, you think of just one parent 
22   trying to get to their child and you could see that 
23   evacuation plan going into a tailspin.  And then 
24   multiple that by thousands of parents trying to get 
25   to their child or children, because nowadays 
0040
 1   children are all in different places because they 
 2   do all different kinds of things and you can see 
 3   chaos happen.  
 4            So I don't think anybody in this room 
 5   would want any of their family members to be a 
 6   statistic and that's one of the reasons, 
 7   personally, I am so against the operation of Oyster 
 8   Creek.  And I do believe, like my colleague said, 
 9   you shouldn't have an energy source that needs an 
10   evacuation plan, but I really would like to know, 
11   do you calculate the loss of human life in that 
12   plan and do you calculate injuries because I know 
13   the National Academy of Sciences has said, were 
14   there to be an accident, meltdown at Oyster Creek 
15   the deaths from cancer would be in the tens of 
16   thousands.  
17            So what do you do when you draw the plan 
18   up, what's in there?  I know it's a very difficult 
19   question to answer.  
20            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  It is especially for 
21   me because I'm not a health physician, I don't know 
22   long-term effects of radiation.  It's a science 
23   that I would defer to the BNE to try and calculate 
24   the long-term effects of radiation and possible 
25   cancers and deaths as a result.  
0041
 1            However, in hostile-action events, we do 
 2   in those scenarios have casualties and fatalities 
 3   with small arms fire, trading fire with hostiles 
 4   that are entering the plant trying to take over the 
 5   facility, so in that regard we do.  To the best of 
 6   my recollection, we don't calculate long-term 
 7   effects of radiation, our focus is on protecting 
 8   the immediate public to get out away from the 
 9   radiation as best as possible that we can.  
10            And you are absolutely right, that's why 
11   we exercise and train.  We are going to have 
12   mistakes occasionally, a fax machine may break or 
13   something stupid, somebody may forget to call a 
14   town.  That's why we train, that's why the Federal 
15   Emergency Management Agency is evaluating us.  
16            This year, however, was part of our 
17   six-year cycle for exercising where we exercised 
18   for three days at the Salem Hope Creek site for 
19   long-term effect going out months at a time and, 
20   you know, relocating segments of population and so 
21   forth outside the 10-mile EPZ, sampling of the 
22   crops and so forth, which was really the focus of 
23   the Department of Agriculture, Environmental 
24   Protection and Health after we moved the public 
25   out.  
0042
 1            So that was very interesting and valuable 
 2   as a training tool for us.  As far as -- to the 
 3   best of my knowledge, Paul may want to step in 
 4   here, but long-term effects of radiation and 
 5   fatalities associated with that, I don't know, you 
 6   have to look at Chernobyl as an example maybe.
 7            MS. TAURO:  Okay.  I'm not really trying 
 8   to put you on the spot, but how would you deal with 
 9   a person like me?  In other words, if I have to go 
10   get my daughter and I have to go get my son, I 
11   mean, there is really nothing that is going to stop 
12   me, how do you deal with that?  
13            How do you deal with the children being in 
14   different spots and a panicked mother trying to get 
15   there?  Did you work that into your plan when you 
16   drew it up?  
17            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  For children, we do 
18   have precautionary actions to relocate them, as you 
19   know, early on before we -- 
20            MS. TAURO:  That's for school.  I'm 
21   talking about when they are at the playground, when 
22   they are at dance school, when they're at piano 
23   lessons.
24            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  I've been to a dance 
25   recital where the fire alarm went off, so I know 
0043
 1   how mothers can be, but we try to manage those 
 2   situations as best as possible and for the interest 
 3   of everybody.  And the studies show that if you 
 4   give people the right direction and right guidance, 
 5   they will do as instructed for the most part, so we 
 6   make those assumptions into the plan.
 7            MS. TAURO:  Okay, I just can't see this 
 8   thing happening.  You know, it just sounds like it 
 9   would be very easy for chaos and pandemonium to 
10   ensue.  Not to say I don't have respect for your -- 
11   I really do, but I think we just really got to be 
12   realistic and honest about this, that it would 
13   really be bad.  
14            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  It would be bad.  And 
15   we've had evacuations in the past in New Jersey, 
16   especially any incident that occurs in New York 
17   City.  The World Trade Center attacks, people were 
18   flooded into New Jersey, we had to handle those 
19   evacuees.  The blackout a few years ago where we 
20   had people coming over the bridges to New Jersey, 
21   so you will have to handle that.  
22            The positive point is that we have a plan 
23   in place to work with where those events that we 
24   don't have a plan to evacuate the World Trade or 
25   Lower Manhattan, Midtown Manhattan.  So the 
0044
 1   positive here is that the direct plan, at least we 
 2   have a document to work with.  And we train and 
 3   exercise on a regular basis.
 4            MS. TAURO:  Fair enough.  I would just 
 5   urge, please, the DEP -- I know you have 
 6   jurisdiction over the fuel pool; however, you 
 7   certainly can request the NRC to require that that 
 8   fuel pool be brought down to a low density because 
 9   that would make your job much more -- even safer 
10   for your guys, too, if that fuel pool was brought 
11   down to a low density, which it was originally 
12   constructed to be at.  
13            It was for the originally constructed to 
14   hold the volume that it is holding right now.  So 
15   logic tells you that the greater the volume, the 
16   greater the risk.  Okay, thank you.  
17            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  Thank you.
18            MS. LIPOTI:  Peggi Sturmfels.
19            MS. STURMFELS:  Peggi, S-T-U-R-M-F-E-L-S.  
20   I had a couple of things, but I just wanted to 
21   touch back on the tritium because you have it on 
22   your paperwork and I had asked you this before.  We 
23   had determined, or it was determined that none of 
24   the tritium had traveled off-site; however, if it's 
25   invaded into aquifers, do they own the aquifer?  
0045
 1            Who owns the aquifer is a question I had 
 2   asked, but it's something to be determined because 
 3   if all of us get our drinking water from the 
 4   aquifer because I believe the aquifer should belong 
 5   to the State of New Jersey and the people of New 
 6   Jersey.  Just a question.  
 7            Also, in terms of Lacey Township being 
 8   allowed to further develop the Finninger Farm area 
 9   or something, that would make me crazy because host 
10   towns getting host monies because of the loss of 
11   revenue from not being able to develop when you 
12   host a power plant or something like that and you 
13   get that money in perpetuity, whatever, that large 
14   amount of taxpayer dollars, why would the town then 
15   be allowed to develop in very sensitive sites, not 
16   only because the plant's there, but also because 
17   Finninger Farm is a critical habitat.  So it's just 
18   a question why the DEP would even allow that CAFRA 
19   permit to go forward.  
20            People who are day-tripping.  I know we've 
21   been here seven, eight years, guys, now, it's sort 
22   of like we come to say hello, but the same things 
23   are really bothering us and I don't think it 
24   changes for us.  And I did, again, this year, July 
25   4th, spent one-and-a-half hours to go 
0046
 1   two-and-a-half miles along the coastal evacuation 
 2   route.  And that's perhaps the extreme, but every 
 3   single Sunday night coming from the shore.  
 4            I mean, the good new is the Jersey Shore 
 5   is up and running because we've had such a great, 
 6   hot, wonderful summer so great for the businesses.  
 7   The bad news is it's been an up-and-running great, 
 8   hot summer with loads and loads of people.  We are 
 9   seeing more people now who we don't know who they 
10   are coming from out of state.  
11            Lots and lots of out-of-state cars who are 
12   day-tripping as opposed to rentals where you have 
13   more control toward maybe even identifying these 
14   people.  These folks don't know anything about the 
15   area.  They don't know where they are going or how 
16   to get in and out.  It's really serious as we pile 
17   more and more people into this small area that all 
18   of us call home.  So I think that is something 
19   really concerning.  
20            The other thing is this emergency 
21   information for boaters.  I've had three of my 
22   family members go through the boating course this 
23   year, not one of them came home with it.  My 
24   suggestion would be that your folks contact whoever 
25   runs the boating courses and it's included in the 
0047
 1   packages because everybody now has to get this 
 2   boating license.  
 3            So that might be a way for the folks from 
 4   North Jersey who are taking the boating course for 
 5   the first time and dragging their boats down here 
 6   on trailers, maybe this will give them some 
 7   information if it's made sure it's given to them in 
 8   their packet when they are signing up for their 
 9   courses.  It's helpful and might give them some 
10   information.  
11            And the last question I have, I have it 
12   every year, are the sirens working?  Thank you.  
13            MS. LIPOTI:  Thanks, Peggi.  Let me answer 
14   a few of those and send a few to other folks to 
15   answer.  Your first question is regarding the 
16   tritium and what constitutes off-site.  The 
17   commissioner has issued what's called a Spill Act 
18   Directive to Exelon to cooperate with the DEP on 
19   the delineation of the tritium plume which has 
20   moved from the Cape May Aquifer, which is the 
21   shallowest aquifer, into the Cohansey Aquifer and 
22   has not moved from the Cohansey into the Kirkwood.  
23            However, it is not well delineated within 
24   the Cohansey.  And Exelon, we had a meeting with 
25   Exelon on the 13th of July.  Exelon has completed 
0048
 1   their well drilling to put additional wells to 
 2   delineate vertically within the Cohansey Aquifer 
 3   where the tritium is and where it isn't.  
 4            Those wells have a time period, I'll call 
 5   it resting.  I'm sure there's a hydrogeologic term 
 6   for it and in two weeks after the drill is when you 
 7   can start sampling and then those samples can be 
 8   analyzed.  So we'll know better about where the 
 9   tritium is and where it isn't within the aquifer.  
10   And we certainly will put all of the information 
11   that we have onto our website as it's collected.  
12            The second issue was on the development of 
13   Finninger Farm and critical habitat.  That's a 
14   CAFRA matter and we really can't comment on that.  
15   It will have to go through the CAFRA permitting 
16   process and that's -- they don't report to me, but 
17   I know Tom Mackie and I'll tell him that this was 
18   raised at our meeting tonight.  
19            The last three issues are all Tom 
20   Scardino's issues, tourists, boating and sirens.  
21            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  I guess I'll take them 
22   in the order that you presented them, Peggi.  
23   Number one was the day-trippers visiting the shores 
24   for the day and not being from the area and the 
25   congestion on our roadways.  Obviously, in an ideal 
0049
 1   world we would like to have four-lane highways for 
 2   evacuation routes to utilize, that's not the case 
 3   in Ocean County here with Route 9 and some of the 
 4   county roads that we utilize.  
 5            However, the key to moving people out, as 
 6   you know, is to have police officers at the 
 7   bottleneck locations to move the traffic 
 8   effectively and have a plan in place and monitor 
 9   that plan through the New Jersey DOT and the County 
10   Road Department and the emergency management 
11   operation centers through the county and the 
12   state.  
13            So the key to breaking up those bottleneck 
14   locations are to have access control on traffic 
15   control posts on scene with a uniformed police 
16   officer to move people on their way.  And hopefully 
17   that would alleviate those bottleneck locations.  
18   And you are right, the traffic in the summertime 
19   here is very congested and we realize that.  
20            MS. STURMFELS:  I think one of the things 
21   that happened was that there was -- probably 
22   fireworks, kids or whatever, but in this horrendous 
23   traffic jam going north, you also had police trying 
24   to get there and an ambulance trying to get up the 
25   side and they couldn't move.  So it just really, 
0050
 1   really exemplifies what the nightmare would be.  
 2            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  And we realize that.  
 3   And part of our planning assumption is we are going 
 4   to -- very early on in an incident we would 
 5   mobilize the law enforcement folks that are going 
 6   to be staffing those traffic control posts and they 
 7   will be placed on scene prior to the evacuation 
 8   order being given.  So it's not like they would be 
 9   responding to a location against all of the traffic 
10   trying to get out, they would already be there 
11   early on in our protective action zone.  
12            The boater brochure just came out, so I 
13   appreciate your comments on that, that was very 
14   positive.  You always bring positive comments to 
15   the meeting, so I look forward to that.  This is a 
16   product that my staff developed and I have to give 
17   them accolades, they did a good job on it.  We will 
18   send it to the boater schools as well as the 
19   marinas.  We'll focus on the EPZs first and then 
20   move out in that way.  
21            As far as siren tests, Exelon is 
22   responsible for maintaining and running siren 
23   tests.  I believe the last siren test was June 4th 
24   and I think June 1st.  June 1st was the full  
25   three-minute test of the sirens and I don't believe 
0051
 1   there were any failures in the siren.  
 2            MS. LIPOTI:  Lorraine Sansone.  And then 
 3   if anyone else wants to speak, make sure you fill 
 4   out a card.
 5            MS. SANSONE:  Good evening, Lorraine 
 6   Sansone, S-A-N-S-O-N-E, Lanoka Harbor, New Jersey.  
 7   I live within the five mile evacuation area, so I 
 8   kind of have a very vested interest.  
 9            Can I ask -- I know you've been answering 
10   questions after the speaker asked, after the end of 
11   the speaker, but my question is, how many years 
12   have you been conducting these hearings, do you 
13   know, ballpark?  
14            MS. LIPOTI:  20.
15            MS. SANSONE:  I think I've missed one, so 
16   I've been to all of them and I used to start out as 
17   a mother who had a child in kindergarten and I have 
18   to commend the people in this room who spoke 
19   tonight.  Their questions are either very well 
20   versed, they are very polite and very respectful.  
21   And my own opinion is it hasn't gotten them 
22   anywhere so far, I started out like that.  
23            So tonight I'm not going to be negative, 
24   but I'm going to say what I honestly feel.  My 
25   first question, if you can answer it right at the 
0052
 1   top it will help me, is the Price Anderson Act 
 2   still in effect?  
 3            MS. LIPOTI:  Yes, it is.  
 4            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  Yes, it is.  
 5            MS. SANSONE:  Does the Price Anderson Act 
 6   indemnify or protect homeowners, yes or no?  
 7            MS. LIPOTI:  Indemnify homeowners?  
 8            MS. SANSONE:  If there is a nuclear 
 9   release and they can't return to their homes and 
10   their homes are unsellable.
11            MS. LIPOTI:  My understanding is that, and 
12   we practiced this with the three-day exercise and 
13   we first practiced this in 1998 in that the   
14   three-day exercise, the American Nuclear Insurers 
15   would set up a disaster field office and homeowners 
16   would have the ability to come to that disaster 
17   field office to make a claim and the American 
18   Nuclear Insurers would honor that claim that met 
19   the criteria.
20            MS. SANSONE:  There is enough money in 
21   that pool?  I'm assuming there is an insurance 
22   pool.
23            MS. LIPOTI:  There is an insurance pool.
24            MS. SANSONE:  You are telling me tonight 
25   that while my homeowners will not pay for it, and I 
0053
 1   know that they won't and everybody knows -- I hope 
 2   they know that they won't.  You are saying that we 
 3   can apply to get full indemnification for the loss 
 4   of our homes because that's our biggest investment.
 5            MS. LIPOTI:  I will certainly look to any 
 6   of the other experts in the room and probably Pat 
 7   Mulligan knows the most about this, but the 
 8   American Nuclear Insurers has a pool of money that 
 9   is available and they have a process by which you 
10   apply.  And if you are unable to return to your 
11   home there is a restitution.  
12            MS. SANSONE:  But you don't know how large 
13   that pool is?  
14            MS. LIPOTI:  I don't know at this very 
15   moment, but they have a website, the American 
16   Nuclear Insurers' website, and you can certainly 
17   look that up.  
18            MS. SANSONE:  Okay, I will be looking it 
19   up.  And as far as my other comments, there was a 
20   question asked earlier, maybe I misunderstood it.  
21   It was Mr. Brown, he asked what services would 
22   still be available during the event of a       
23   stay-in-place kind of order and I thought he meant 
24   utilities such as electric, water, those kind of 
25   things, and I don't believe it was answered.  
0054
 1            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  I kind of thought -- 
 2   I'm sorry, Mr. Brown, I thought you were referring 
 3   to when people leave their house.  I think you 
 4   talked about both of those issues.
 5            MS. SANSONE:  That's the way -- 
 6            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  Right.  Again, it 
 7   would be dependant on the scenario.  As far as I'm 
 8   concerned, the utilities would be on unless it 
 9   needed to be cut off.  If there was a justifiable 
10   reason to cut utilities for some reason, then we 
11   would do that as a response, but -- 
12            MS. SANSONE:  If there was a spent fuel 
13   pool fire, it would still project that the electric 
14   and water would still be working?  
15            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  Unless the Department 
16   of Health or the Department of Environmental 
17   Protection recommend to the governor that we cease 
18   using well water or whatever, yes, we would 
19   still -- 
20            MS. SANSONE:  Well water has to be pumped 
21   and most of Lacey, except for Bander (ph), is on 
22   public well supply.  
23            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  That would require 
24   sampling and so forth, but until told otherwise, 
25   yes, you can use your facility.
0055
 1            MS. SANSONE:  One other thing that came up 
 2   earlier, no one is using the term terrorist 
 3   anymore, we are using hostile action, that's kind 
 4   of a kinder gentler kind of term, but I hope you 
 5   are aware that Miller Airport is applying for a 
 6   second runway, the county plans to do that.  
 7            I know when it comes to hostile actions, 
 8   meaning terrorists in my world, that will open up 
 9   more traffic in Miller.  And Miller can be a source 
10   of a great security problem.  Just advising you 
11   that that's what's going on now.  
12            And in summary, I just have a couple of 
13   things to say and you don't need to respond to 
14   them.  Your response documents in the past I have 
15   found very lacking.  That's just how I feel because 
16   I requested that all of the questions be posted in 
17   the response document and everyone who receives the 
18   document gets everybody's answers to all of the 
19   questions for those that came up later.  
20            But I do have a question that I asked last 
21   year, and since my part of the document didn't 
22   appear, I have to ask again, what is the roof of 
23   the spent fuel pool made of?  I'm asking that now, 
24   does anyone know?  
25            MS. LIPOTI:  Why don't you ask all of your 
0056
 1   questions and then we'll respond.
 2            MS. SANSONE:  That's the last of my 
 3   questions and then I have a summary statement.  
 4            MR. BALDAUF:  I think I answered it last 
 5   year and I answered incorrectly and Rich corrected 
 6   me, so, Rich, tell me what it's made of.  
 7            RICH:  Metal.
 8            MS. SANSONE:  I heard that part last year, 
 9   but, again, it didn't appear anywhere, so if it is 
10   made of metal, what kind of metal and what is the 
11   thickness?  
12            RICH:  I do not know that.  
13            MS. SANSONE:  Which it's funny because you 
14   didn't know it last year either.  I hate to be 
15   cynical and sarcastic, but when it comes to 
16   anything, the people from the nuclear plant, the 
17   officials they speak, I'm in the Judge Judy school 
18   of belief.  I wouldn't believe a word they said if 
19   their tongues were notarized.  That's Judge Judy.  
20            And in my comments there is a word that I 
21   love, it's a Stephen Colbert word, truthiness.  And 
22   I'm afraid that when it comes to the spokespeople, 
23   I'm not saying the workers at the plant, the 
24   spokespeople from the nuclear plant, and you have 
25   to deal with them all of the time and you have to 
0057
 1   deal with the higher-ups all of the time, I would 
 2   like you to learn the definition and utilize the 
 3   word truthiness.  
 4            Finally, I have a word double dare for 
 5   you.  I've been coming here for so long and so many 
 6   good people have said, the evacuation plan will not 
 7   work, common sense, it was heard again tonight, 
 8   they are very skeptical about it.  For 20 years I 
 9   have been coming to say the evacuation plan cannot 
10   work.  
11            I come back, you give a response, I come 
12   back, blah, blah, blah.  This year I have a double 
13   dog dare for you.  I dare you to poll the public in 
14   Ocean County, a straight up honest poll, no push 
15   poll, no PR.  Do you believe that the blurb, 
16   whatever word, will work.  And just publish the 
17   results of the poll.  I don't think they are 
18   different from what public speakers in this room 
19   have said tonight.  
20            I thank you once again.  The nuclear plan 
21   is getting older I'm getting older, and, quite 
22   frankly, the both of us are getting tired.
23            MS. LIPOTI:  Thank you.  Ms. Sansone.  And 
24   I do apologize for not having the response 
25   document -- well, for not having the entire 
0058
 1   transcript from last year's meeting published on 
 2   our website.  Every other year, we did publish the 
 3   whole transcript on the website so that it would be 
 4   available and certainly anyone could see, not only 
 5   what you asked, but what we responded in this open 
 6   session.  
 7            Last year the response document was lost 
 8   by the stenography company and we were left without 
 9   having the document.  So if we missed responding to 
10   a question that we asked, I apologize and we will 
11   find out the thickness of the metal on the roof 
12   over the spent fuel pool and we'll send it to you 
13   and everyone else who signed up on that list.
14            MS. SANSONE:  Thank you very much.
15            MS. LIPOTI:  Is there anything else that 
16   my panelists want to respond to?  
17            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  I just wanted to say 
18   that recently the NRC did conduct a poll, telephone 
19   survey of the EPZ community, not particularly Ocean 
20   County, but it was a rather favorable result of 
21   that poll as far as, are you familiar with the 
22   plan?  Do you know your evacuation routes?  Do you 
23   have your brochure, have you read it?  The majority 
24   of those were favorable.
25            MS. SANSONE:  But you didn't ask them if 
0059
 1   they thought it would work.  
 2            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  That's all I wanted to 
 3   say is that the NRC did do a survey recently.  
 4            MS. GOTSCH:  They thought it was a    
 5   five-million people survey and it wasn't 
 6   representative -- 
 7            MS. LIPOTI:  Paula, let's try to keep this 
 8   so that we use this microphone because otherwise 
 9   the court stenographer really can't get 
10   everything.  Paula, on this issue, certainly come 
11   up and make your statement.  I still have one more 
12   person who wishes to speak.
13            MS. GOTSCH:  Paula Gotsch.  Truthiness, I 
14   guess, if Mr. Mulligan really thinks they did only 
15   500 people and they are saying 5 million, but in 
16   their survey over 20 percent have home emergency 
17   kits for other reasons also.  50 percent had 
18   instructions and 80 percent were aware that there 
19   was a plan according to this survey of 500 people.  
20            It's not clear whether they are were 
21   people in the rural areas who would be more apt to 
22   have this information or whether it was the bigger 
23   plans, like in Limerick or those types.  And for 
24   our area, these questions would be invalid because 
25   we have so many vacationers a good deal of the 
0060
 1   time.  
 2            So this percentage would not have any, 
 3   what do you call it, validity at all, but it is 
 4   just another example, I think, of poor polling and 
 5   poor results and making -- I mean these assumptions 
 6   that were talked about at the meeting were the 
 7   basis for their saying, we are in good shape here.  
 8   They are building their sense of complacency, which 
 9   I talked about before, on very, very shallow data, 
10   it seems to me.  Okay, that's all I got to say.  
11   Thanks again.  
12            MS. LIPOTI:  Thank you, Paula.  Matthew 
13   Runfola.
14            MR. RUNFOLA:  Good evening.  My name is 
15   Matthew Runfola, R-U-N-F-O-L-A.  My question 
16   basically is I had read, I believe it was on the 
17   Internet, that Exelon is upgrading the public 
18   notification system and I just wanted to know what 
19   the status was on that?  
20            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  I'm sorry, can you 
21   repeat the question, please?  
22            MR. RUNFOLA:  Yes.  I had read, I believe 
23   it was on the Internet possibly, that Exelon was in 
24   the process of updating the public notification 
25   system, the siren system.  
0061
 1            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  The siren system?  
 2            MR. RUNFOLA:  Yes, and I wanted to know 
 3   what the status was on that.  
 4            SERGEANT SCARDINO:  I can't speak for 
 5   Exelon, but I do know they are exploring the 
 6   possibilities of upgrading in the future.  I would 
 7   defer to an Exelon representative who may be here 
 8   tonight to answer your question.  
 9            Jerry Renner, do you know anything about 
10   upgrades to the siren system?  
11            MR. RENNER:  There is an upgrade plan, I 
12   don't know the exact time frame.  One of the Exelon 
13   folks would know that time frame, but there is a 
14   plan to do that in the fairly near future.  
15            MS. LIPOTI:  Would you come up to the 
16   microphone, please, and state your name.
17            MR. THOMPSON:  My name is Peter Thompson 
18   and I do work for Exelon.  And our schedule for 
19   siren replacement for Ocean Creek for the Ocean 
20   County area is 2014.  They are currently undergoing 
21   replacements at the Limerick Generating Station and 
22   we'll do the other two in the Pennsylvania area and 
23   then we'll move into New Jersey.  And the schedule 
24   right now is 2014.
25            MR. RUNFOLA:  Thank you very much.
0062
 1            MS. LIPOTI:  So I've reached the end of 
 2   the cards.  
 3            Is there anyone else who would like to 
 4   speak or anyone who has spoken who would like to 
 5   speak again?  
 6            UNKNOWN SPEAKER:  Just real quick.  
 7            MS. LIPOTI:  Please come up and use the 
 8   microphone.
 9            UNKNOWN SPEAKER:  Just very quickly 
10   because we do have a real concern about the fuel 
11   pool and its vulnerability.  Have you considered -- 
12   I guess you can't say require, but requesting that 
13   Exelon constructed a concrete enclosure around that 
14   fuel pool that would make it more robust?  I mean, 
15   is it something that a possibility?  
16            MS. LIPOTI:  Any changes to a nuclear 
17   power plant have to be very carefully considered 
18   before you make them because you don't want any one 
19   safety system to effect other safety systems.  And 
20   I think that's all I want to say on that subject.
21            UNKNOWN SPEAKER:  Thank you.
22            MS. LIPOTI:  Anything else?  Well, I want 
23   to thank everyone for coming once again to the 
24   public hearing.  I know it is an annual ritual, but 
25   I think it is very important that we hear directly 
0063
 1   what your concerns are and to the extent that we 
 2   can, that we respond to them.  So thank you very 
 3   much for coming tonight.  The hearing is 
 4   adjourned.  
 5                (Whereupon, the hearing 
 6                adjourned at 8:27 p.m.) 
 7   
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0064
 1                      CERTIFICATE 
 2       I, JUSTIN DAVIS, certify that the foregoing is 
 3   a true and accurate transcript of the testimony as 
 4   taken stenographically by and before me at the 
 5   time, place and on the date herein before set 
 6   forth.
 7             I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither a 
 8   relative nor employee nor attorney nor counsel of 
 9   any of the parties to this action, and that I am 
10   neither a relative nor employee of such attorney or 
11   counsel, and that I am not financially interested 
12   in the action.
13            
14            
15                      Justin Davis
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