1 1 STATE OF NEW JERSEY 2 DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION 3 DIVISION OF ENVIRONMENTAL SAFETY 4 5 IN RE: : 6 NEW JERSEY RADIOLOGICAL EMERGENCY RESPONSE PLAN: 7 FOR NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS : 8 _______________________________________________: 9 10 PUBLIC HEARING 11 12 AT: OCEAN COUNTY ADMINISTRATION BUILDING 13 101 Hooper Avenue Room 119 14 Toms River, New Jersey 0873-7605 15 DATE: TUESDAY, JULY 22, 2008 16 TIME: 7:01 P.M. to 8:19 P.M. 17 18 19 GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 20 CERTIFIED COURT REPORTERS & VIDEOGRAPHERS 21 GOLDEN CREST CORPORATE CENTER 22 2277 STATE HIGHWAY #33, SUITE 410 23 TRENTON, NEW JERSEY 08690-1700 24 TEL: (609) 989-9199 TOLL FREE: (800) 368-7652 25 www.renziassociates.com 2 1 B O A R D M E M B E R S: 2 JILL A. LIPOTI, Ph.D., Director, Hearing Officer 3 4 PAUL BALDAUF, P.E., DEP, Assistant Director, 5 Radiation Protection & Release Prevention 6 7 JAMES PASQUALO, MS, Response Coordinator 8 Emergency Preparedness & Response 9 10 THOMAS A. SCARDINO, No. #4656, Assistant Unit 11 Supervisor Radiological Emergency 12 Response Planning and Technical Unit 13 14 JERRY RENNER, New Jersey State Police, Lead 15 Offsite Planner for the Radiological 16 Emergency Response Planning and Technical 17 Unit. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 A G E N D A 2 PAGE 3 4 OPENING STATEMENT 5 by Hearing Officer Lipoti 4 6 by Sgt. Scardino 8,13 7 by Mr. Baldauf 9,18 8 by Mr. Pasqualo 16 9 10 PUBLIC COMMENT 21 11 12 SUMMATION STATEMENTS 13 by Sgt. Scardino 66 14 by Paul Baldauf 66 15 by James Pasqualo 66 16 by Hearing Officer Lipoti 67 17 18 ADJOURNMENT 67 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Good 2 evening, can you all hear me? 3 AUDIENCE MEMBERS: Yes. 4 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: My name's 5 Jill Lipoti. I'm the Director of the Division of 6 Environmental Safety and Health within the 7 New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection 8 and I'll be the hearing officer for this hearing. 9 The purpose of the hearing is to 10 receive testimony, comments and questions 11 regarding the adequacy and effectiveness of the 12 New Jersey Radiological Emergency Response Plan 13 for Nuclear Power Plants. And in order that the 14 hearing can be properly documented, the 15 proceedings are being recorded by a certified 16 shorthand reporter. 17 Everybody attending the meeting is 18 asked to sign the attendance sheet hopefully on 19 the way in, but certainly before you leave. The 20 attendance sheets for the hearing are used to 21 update our Bureau of Nuclear Engineering mailing 22 list. 23 Public notice of this hearing was 24 published in the New Jersey Register on May 16th 25 and June 2nd, 2008. In addition, public notice 5 1 was published in the Asbury Park Press on July 2 15th through July 21st, the Beach Haven Times on 3 July 16th and the Lacey Beacon on July 17th. 4 Copies of the public notice for the three 5 hearings were mailed in June to all persons who 6 attended last year's hearings. 7 This hearing will read as follows: 8 I'll provide a brief background on why we're 9 conducting the hearing. Then I'll introduce the 10 panel members and ask them to briefly describe 11 the of their organization in nuclear emergency 12 preparedness and response. And then I will open 13 the hearing to comments and questions from the 14 public. 15 The New Jersey Radiation Accident 16 Response Act requires that the Department of 17 Environmental Protection, in cooperation with the 18 New Jersey Division of State Police, conduct 19 public hearings to take comment on and to address 20 questions relevant to the adequacy and 21 effectiveness of the New Jersey Radiological 22 Emergency Response Plan for Nuclear Power Plants. 23 These public hearings are held 24 annually in each of the three counties affected 25 by the plan; Ocean County for the Oyster Creek 6 1 Nuclear Generating Station, and Salem and 2 Cumberland Counties for the Salem Unit 1, Salem 3 Unit 2, and Hope Creek Nuclear Generating 4 Stations. 5 So we're here tonight to listen to 6 your questions and comments on the New Jersey 7 Nuclear Emergency Response Plan. Comments on 8 more general nuclear power issues or issues that 9 relate to licensing and regulatory matters at 10 nuclear power plants are not within the purview 11 of this meeting and hence are not appropriate, 12 and will not address them. 13 The purpose of the plan is to 14 coordinate and implement an immediate and 15 comprehensive response at the state, county and 16 municipal levels to a radiological emergency 17 associated with any nuclear power plant affecting 18 the state of New Jersey. 19 Copies of the plan are available for 20 public inspection at the Salem County Emergency 21 Management Office in Mannington Township, the 22 Cumberland County Office of Emergency Management 23 in Bridgeton, and the Ocean County Office of 24 Emergency Management in Berkeley Township, the 25 New Jersey Office of Emergency Management in West 7 1 Trenton, and in public libraries in Salem, 2 Cumberland and Ocean Counties. And we have a 3 copy of it here. 4 Now I'd like to introduce the 5 members or the panel. 6 Sergeant First Class Tom Scardino 7 and Mr. Jerry Renner are representing the New 8 Jersey Division of State Police. Sgt. Scardino 9 is the Assistant Unit Head of the Radiological 10 Emergency Response Planning and Technical Unit 11 and Mr. Renner is the Lead Offsite Planner for 12 the Radiological Emergency Response Planning and 13 Technical Unit. 14 Mr. Paul Baldauf is representing the 15 New Jersey Department of Environmental 16 Protection. Mr. Baldauf is the Assistant 17 Director of the Radiation Protection Release 18 Prevention Program. 19 Representing the New Jersey 20 Department of Health and Senior Services is 21 Mr. Jim Pasqualo. Mr. Pasqualo is an Emergency 22 Response Coordinator. So if questions arise 23 regarding the Department's Health and Senior 24 Services responsibilities, I will call him for a 25 response. 8 1 So first I'll ask Sgt. Scardino to 2 please describe the role of the State Police in 3 the plan. 4 SGT. SCARDINO: Thank you, 5 Dr. Lipoti. 6 Good evening and welcome everyone. 7 My name is Sergeant First Class Thomas Scardino. 8 I am representing the State Office of Emergency 9 Management. Our office, as you know, has the 10 responsibility for administering and implementing 11 the Radiological Emergency Response Plan for 12 incidents at nuclear power plants in New Jersey. 13 In addition to preparation of 14 radiological emergency plans, the New Jersey 15 State Police is the lead agency in the following 16 functional areas: Notification and 17 Communication; Command and Coordination; 18 Protective Actions, which include evacuation, 19 shelter-in-place, access control, food and water 20 and milk control; Parallel Actions also include 21 traffic control, decontamination, exposure 22 control, mass care, law enforcement, fire 23 control, public health and re-entry and recovery. 24 For the record, I would also like to 25 introduce several members of the New Jersey 9 1 Office of Emergency Management who are here 2 tonight. Mr. Jerry Renner, to my right, is our 3 Lead Offsite Planner for Ocean County. Lt. Rich 4 Stency (phonetic) in the rear is the Unit 5 Supervisor for the Radiological Emergency 6 Response Plan and Technical Unit. Seated next to 7 him is Mr. Allen Smith, a Planner for Salem and 8 Cumberland Counties. And Gian Campesi the 9 Technical Advisor for the Division of State 10 Police. And Sgt. Robert Aponte is the Central 11 Regional liaison to Ocean County. Thank you. 12 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Thanks. 13 Now I'll ask Mr. Baldauf to briefly 14 describe the role of the Department of 15 Environmental of Protection in the plan. 16 MR. BALDAUF: Thank you, Dr. Lipoti. 17 Good evening, my name is Paul 18 Baldauf. I'm Assistant Director of Radiation 19 Protection & Release Prevention with the New 20 Jersey DEP and I'll briefly discuss the role of 21 the Department of Environmental Protection in 22 New Jersey's Radiological Emergency Response 23 Plan. 24 The New Jersey Radiological 25 Emergency Response Plan includes the plan, 10 1 standard operating procedures and annexes. The 2 Plan identifies all responsible state agencies 3 and outlines their specific roles in the event of 4 a nuclear emergency. 5 It is based on five primary 6 functions that outline the actions to be 7 performed in the event of a radiological 8 emergency at one of the four nuclear power pants 9 in New Jersey or the plant in a neighboring 10 state. These actions are: Notification; 11 Accident Assessment; Command and Coordination; 12 Protective Actions; and Parallel Actions. 13 Since agency roles and 14 responsibility don't change often, the plan does 15 not change. The Standard Operating Procedures 16 are specific instructions and guidelines used by 17 each agency when performing their specific 18 duties. Procedures are reviewed and tested 19 annually, and revised whenever necessary in order 20 to enhance emergency response. 21 The Annexes, A and B, are the 22 Radiological Emergency Response Plans for the 23 Salem/Hope Creek and Oyster Creek Nuclear 24 Generating Sites. Respectfully, each annex 25 describes the planning basis and concept of 11 1 operation for each of the municipalities within 2 the ten-mile Emergency Planning Zones around each 3 site. 4 Under the New Jersey Radiation 5 Accident Response Act, the Department of 6 Environmental Protection has the lead role in 7 Accident Assessment and control of food, water 8 and milk following an incident. Accident 9 Assessment involves two separate analyses, an 10 engineering analysis of the event at the plant as 11 it unfolds, and an analysis of the amount of 12 radiation to which the public may be exposed in 13 the event of a release. 14 Depending upon the severity of the 15 event, the Department provides Protective Action 16 Recommendations to the Governor, who will make a 17 final decision on actions to be implemented to 18 protect public health and safety. Protective 19 Action Recommendations for the public may include 20 the administration of potassium iodide, 21 evacuation, sheltering and access control within 22 the affected or potentially affected area. 23 The Act also specifies that the 24 Department develop and implement a comprehensive 25 monitoring strategy that includes the daily 12 1 monitoring of levels of radioactivity in the 2 environment. The Department also provides public 3 health, safety and technical guidance with 4 respect to the preparation and implementation of 5 the plan. 6 The Department's final 7 responsibility under the Act is to conduct, in 8 cooperation with the State Police, public 9 hearings annually to determine the adequacy and 10 effectiveness of the Plan. 11 Members of my staff who are here 12 tonight are Patrick Mulligan, who's the manager 13 of the Bureau of Nuclear Engineering; Nick 14 DePierro, in the nice blue shirt, is Supervisor 15 to the Emergency Preparedness Section. Besides 16 Nick is Carol Shepard, this is the same section. 17 Paul Schwartz from our environmental group is 18 here. Rich Pinney, who's the Supervisor of our 19 Engineering Group and Bob who works in our Direct 20 Response Section. 21 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Thanks. 22 Before we get to the real purpose of 23 the hearing which is to listen to what you have 24 to say and to respond to your questions, I'd like 25 to head off one question. The first question 13 1 people ask is "What has changed in the last year, 2 what have you done?" And so I'd like to give 3 each of the agencies an opportunity to describe 4 some of the things that we've done in the past 5 year to update the plan. 6 First of all, the State Police have 7 opened a new facility known as the Regional 8 Intelligence and Operations Center or the "ROIC." 9 Sgt. Scardino, would you briefly 10 describe the ROIC? 11 SGT. SCARDINO: Yes. As Dr. Lipoti 12 said, the Regional Operations Intelligence 13 Center, I think I announced its opening during 14 last year's hearing, but since that one-year 15 period a lot has happened. We brought onboard 16 into the ROIC members of federal agencies to 17 include the ATF, the U.S. Coast Guard, the F.B.I. 18 We have direct links to the joint terrorism task 19 force in Newark and in Philadelphia. 20 So again, the motto of the ROIC is 21 "All hazards, all crime, all the time" because we 22 have the emergency management section housed and 23 embedded within that ROIC. And not only is 24 intelligence gained for all different aspects of 25 crime, street gangs, so forth. But if a natural 14 1 disaster strikes, all hands are on deck and we 2 open up. And any resources we need are available 3 to us just by going down the hall and talking to 4 someone. 5 So it's been very beneficial. We 6 had several disasters in the past year, flooding 7 events. As you know, street gang crime is out of 8 control and we have an Operation Cease Fire 9 working within the ROIC. So we're really working 10 and striving to really live up to that motto of 11 "All hazards, all crime, all the time." 12 Some of the other enhancements we've 13 made division wide to the State Police, our 14 communication system has been going through a 15 revolution. The Division is currently undergoing 16 what we call a "rebanning" of its entire radio 17 system. This will eliminate interference 18 currently being experienced. It involves over 19 14,000 users of radio equipment within the 20 Division of the State Police. 21 Also the Division has recently 22 installed its communication channel to all 23 21 counties in the state, thereby increasing 24 interoperability with county and local response 25 organizations. 15 1 A new state-of-the-art 911 call 2 center will be unveiled in the fall of 2009 in 3 the ROIC. The call center's sole function will 4 be to receive and route cellular 911 calls from 5 throughout the state. Because it will be 6 embedded within the ROIC, it will allow for a 7 more efficient response to calls for service. 8 The state currently receives over 2 million 9 cellular 911 calls per year. 10 The New Jersey Office of Emergency 11 Management as well as the Division has recently 12 complied with the National Response Framework 13 which was the renaming of the Federal Response 14 Plan in the Federal side of the House. And the 15 Division has complied with the requirement of the 16 National Incident Management System or "NIMS." 17 The Division also has been 18 aggressively recruiting volunteers as you see the 19 poster up there for Citizen Corps Program, and we 20 have grown substantially since it's inception in 21 2004. We now have 409 community emergency 22 response teams statewide with over 15,000 23 volunteers participating in this program. It's a 24 very good program. It allows the community to be 25 involved in what we do on a daily basis. 16 1 That's just some of the enhancements 2 the Division has gone through in the past year. 3 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Thanks. 4 Next the Department of Health and 5 Senior Services have taken some very positive 6 steps to track and document emergency workers 7 exposure limits. 8 Mr. Pasqualo, would you describe the 9 proactive actions of your department? 10 MR. PASQUALO: Sure, I'd be happy 11 to. 12 One of the biggest jobs that the 13 Department of Health has in a nuclear emergency 14 is to keep track of the medical issues that might 15 be experienced by thousands of response workers. 16 In an emergency of that magnitude, there's going 17 to be a lot of people out there doing their jobs 18 trying to remediate the situation. 19 Well, the Department of Health saw a 20 need to be able to track and maintain exposure 21 records or an exposure dose with people who are 22 out working in the field during such an 23 emergency. In the past, we did this in a rather 24 archaic fashion relying on fax machines and 25 written notes pertaining to individual workers 17 1 and it was our thought that we could improve on 2 this. 3 So since our last meeting here last 4 summer, we came up with a Dosimetric Radiological 5 Information System and we call it "DORIS" for 6 short. And essentially what this is is a 7 web-based application, like many other things in 8 life these days, where emergency workers and 9 supervisors could get on this system from 10 anywhere in the state or the country for that 11 matter and be able to input the exposure doses 12 for the people in their charge and be able to 13 also receive back from our service in Trenton 14 summaries of what their staff has been exposed to 15 and thus be able to make accurate projections on 16 any potential resultant health effects. 17 So this system, I guess, enables a 18 lot of inputs. We could track thousands of 19 people literally at the same time. It's, again, 20 based on a web application. It's done in 21 realtime. As you put information in, you can get 22 information out of it. There's no lag time 23 involved with -- no adding up numbers and getting 24 out fax messages. 25 It enables quick and accurate 18 1 determination of the individual's health status 2 with regard to radiological exposures and it 3 gives up the capacity to centralize it and keep 4 permanent records of all the individuals who 5 might work on such an emergency. 6 So we feel pretty excited about it. 7 It's a vast improvement over what we had to work 8 with in the past. Although it doesn't pertain 9 directly to the public, per se, we look at it as 10 a nice viable improvement to the emergency plan 11 that we're discussing here tonight. 12 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Thanks. 13 Finally, Mr. Baldauf, would you 14 describe the improvements made by the Bureau of 15 Nuclear Engineering? 16 MR. BALDAUF: Thanks, Jill. 17 The Bureau of Nuclear Engineering 18 continually strives to make improvements of our 19 program that will increase our effective -- 20 efficiency and effectiveness. This past year is 21 no exception. 22 Since July of 2007, BNE has 23 established a data connection with PSE&G's 24 planned computer system from our BNE offices in 25 Ewing so that engineers and dose assessment staff 19 1 can view live plant data, enhancing assessment 2 capabilities during the early stages of an event. 3 Fully automated, the preparation, 4 processing and reporting recording of state 5 environmental Thermoluminescence Dosimeter, TLD 6 data -- I always say TLD. 7 Completed an internal technical 8 systems audit of the BNE's TLD Program with the 9 DEP's Office of Quality Assurance enhancing the 10 overall quality of the data. 11 Expanded the environmental sampling 12 program to include additional vegetation and fish 13 samples in the environs of the nuclear power 14 plants. 15 Upgraded the equipment located at 16 the BNE's air sampling locations so that they are 17 more resistant to environmental conditions. 18 Purchase and installed IT equipment 19 at all BNE emergency response facilities to 20 enhance the ability to share data among the 21 assessment and decision-making groups. 22 Purchased and distributed cell 23 phones to emergency responders to augment the 24 notification and coordination of emergency 25 response staff. 20 1 Completed radiation detection 2 equipment upgrades at all CREST sites. 3 Successfully tested transmission of 4 CREST radiation data via wireless communications. 5 Continued to make progress on the 6 implementation of a new central computer system 7 for the acquisition of field radiation data from 8 CREST sites. 9 For those of you who didn't when you 10 came in, there are brochures on the front table 11 here that cover all this information. And 12 certainly if you have any questions during the 13 break or at any time, we have someone from each 14 of these sections who'd be able to answer any 15 questions you may have about our improvement over 16 at last year. 17 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Okay. 18 We'll now proceed to the public questions and 19 comments. For those individuals who wish to 20 speak to complete one of the registration cards 21 and hand it to either Nick or Carol and I will 22 call the speaker's name in the same order that I 23 received the registration card. We need your 24 name and address and the court stenographer will 25 ask you to spell your last name so that she has 21 1 an accurate record. 2 So when I call your name, come 3 forward to the microphone and face the panel. 4 State and spell your name for the reporter. 5 Speakers will be limited to about five minutes 6 each. And if time remains after everybody's had 7 a chance to speak, I'll invite additional 8 comments from those individuals who have spoken. 9 In fairness to the speaker and in 10 order that we can all make best use of the time, 11 I'd ask the cooperation of the audience from 12 refraining from calling out comments from the 13 audience will only delay the proceedings and 14 disrupt our ability to hear, and most 15 importantly, the court reporter, her ability to 16 accurately record the speaker's statements. 17 So we'll begin. 18 Our first commenter, Ms. Paula 19 Gotsch. 20 PUBLIC COMMENTS AND QUESTIONS: 21 MS. GOTSCH: My name is Paula 22 Gotsch, G-o-t-s-c-h. 23 Well, it sounds like you all have 24 been very busy in your respective jobs trying to 25 improve the program and I commend you for that. 22 1 I just wanted to say a few words about an issue 2 with the dry well liners in terms of the 3 emergency response and then I'll make a comment 4 on something in here. Okay. 5 I'm going to talk about refueling 6 which is going to take place in October of this 7 year. Judge Anthony Barrata who was one of 8 the -- our judges on the Atomic Safety and 9 Licensing Board Hearing said, I do not concur 10 that we at this point have a complete 11 understanding of the dry well shell state until a 12 conservative best estimate in houses of the 13 actual dry well is performed. 14 Refueling is a critical time for 15 public safety because it is when the dry well is 16 filled with tons of water used to cool 17 radioactive fuel rods and it has to bear its 18 greatest weight. After a year of over 50,000 19 cases and documentation, NRC decided by not going 20 ahead and relicensing the plant and by requesting 21 more information that the Exelon has failed to 22 prove the reactors corroded steel containment 23 meets the minimum safety standards and they 24 requested more assurance before licensing. 25 Therefore, there is at this time no certainty 23 1 about the safety of the dry well liner. 2 Should the dry well buckle, a 3 complex safety system of cables, wires and pipes 4 would be severed and the region could face the 5 effects of an emanate nuclear meltdown. 6 At the annual meeting held by the 7 regional NRC in May, citizens asked how the NRC 8 could allow refueling in Oyster Creek this 9 October when the NRC Commission says it needs 10 more information on the condition of the dry well 11 liner. Citizens were told that if the dry well 12 started to buckle, the refueling would be 13 stopped. But we know that's not so easy to do in 14 the middle of handling fuel lines. 15 So my question -- and I know it's 16 overwhelming since this whole thing is 17 overwhelming -- how would the emergency plan 18 reflect the possibility of a fast-breaking 19 dangerous emergency at refueling time in October? 20 How will emergency responders be protected in the 21 event of such a horrendous outcome and of course 22 the public? 23 I don't expect you to answer that 24 fully answer that, but would anybody like to take 25 a stab at it? 24 1 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Why don't 2 you finish your testimony and -- 3 MS. GOTSCH: Okay, all right. 4 And now my concern was with -- I 5 have read this from last year, the Office of 6 Emergency Management from the State of New Jersey 7 and my concerns were in the section on radiation. 8 I was reading through it and it is so out of date 9 and I felt that it was really slanted to make us 10 all feel like radiation is as good as bubble gum. 11 So I just wanted to point out a 12 couple of places where this kind of slanted way 13 of talking to the public about radiation which I 14 found was disingenuous. For instance, they quote 15 the National Academy of Sciences talking about 16 radiation and they pull this out of context. 17 It is fair to say that we have more 18 scientific evidence on a hazard for iodide 19 radiation than most, if not all other environment 20 agents that effect the general public, period. 21 Okay, it makes it sound like this is 22 good. They also failed to say -- but they failed 23 to say that the National Academy of Sciences in 24 their latest report said that we really have to 25 be an honest and say that even the least amount 25 1 of radiation can have dilatory effects. We just 2 don't know enough about all the harm radiation 3 can give. Okay, the one point. 4 Then the other thing about adverse 5 health effects from low-doses of radiation from a 6 nuclear power plant occur infrequently if at all 7 and it cannot be distinguished from health 8 effects from sources of low-level radiation. 9 Therefore, scientists cannot tell directly what 10 health effects occur from low doses of radiation, 11 they must defer as a question of blah, blah, 12 blah. 13 And that probably is true in a way. 14 But it doesn't say in there that the -- and I 15 called the NRC about this -- do you ever test the 16 amount of radiation that regularly come out of 17 plants? Do you ever analyze that in terms of 18 fetuses, babies, you know, pregnant women, 19 et cetera, because I do know that they use the 20 adult male as the standard there. 21 And we did meet with the radiation 22 board over at your facility at one point and sat 23 in on a meeting where they were discussing the 24 limits for MRIs for kids because they were 25 concerned that young children are so sensitive to 26 1 radiation, like ten times -- they're hundreds of 2 times more sensitive than adults that they really 3 had to be careful to limit the amount of MRIs and 4 radiation for young children. 5 And so the question we asked was, 6 if this -- if you need to do this for the 7 standard radiation from X-rays, why aren't we 8 doing it on nuclear plants? And they -- you 9 know, they really sat back and couldn't really 10 answer that. 11 So all I'm saying is that I think 12 it's disingenuous for the State Emergency Plan to 13 paint radiation the way the nuclear people claim. 14 They are business people. They have propaganda 15 they give us. This feels like we're playing into 16 the nuclear industries propaganda instead of, you 17 know, stating this stuff the way -- the way for 18 both sides. In other words, in a balanced way. 19 To pick quotations that makes -- out 20 of a National Academy of Science Report that it 21 makes radiation not seem so bad without also 22 reporting the other things the Academy of 23 Science's say seems unbalanced. 24 Okay, that's all I have to say. 25 Did you want to answer the question? 27 1 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Okay. So 2 let's begin with the question about a 3 fast-breaking nuclear accident. Now I'm not 4 going attribute it to any particular issue, I 5 won't say what caused it, just say that the 6 accident is happening quickly. How is it that we 7 will take action; how will we be notified; how 8 will we notify the public to take action? 9 And I guess I would turn -- since 10 notification is probably first to the State 11 Police, then I'll turn to the DEP to talk a 12 little bit about the kinds of recommendations 13 that would be made. 14 So let's take the fast-breaker as an 15 example of a type of accident that we might be 16 asked to respond to. 17 Tom? 18 SGT. SCARDINO: Ms. Gotsch, thanks 19 for your comments. And your comments about the 20 radiation in the brochure are taken. You know, 21 we try to produce a product that is going to be 22 informative to the public. And we try not to 23 take a position pro or against radiation and 24 the health effects of radiation. We rely on 25 sound agencies such as the Academy for comments 28 1 on that regard and we work with the DEP when we 2 put together a brochure like this. 3 But regarding the fast-breaker issue 4 that you brought up, and one of the positive 5 components of the Regional Operation Intelligence 6 Center is that we have very capable and competent 7 folks working there 24 hours a day, seven days a 8 week and they are trained to deal with a 9 fast-breaking type of scenario at one of our 10 nuclear power plants. 11 And that goes as far as activated 12 sirens from the ROIC. We have siren activators 13 there within arms reach of those individuals. 14 Bring down lines to the counties, to the locals 15 and to the control rooms at the sites. So, you 16 know, of course, a fast-breaker would be the 17 worst-case scenario for us as far as getting our 18 forces mobilized and deployed out in the field 19 for evacuation. 20 Those are the types of things that 21 the ROIC has enhanced to prepare for that type of 22 event. 23 MS. GOTSCH: Okay. As far -- I see 24 what you're saying. I guess my question was 25 First Responders and children and old people that 29 1 can't get out of wheelchairs and stuff are not 2 going to be the ones that are going to be hurt. 3 I'm just wondering how we could ever protect them 4 in a fast-breaking emergency and I know it's a 5 question that's unanswerable. Thank you. 6 SGT. SCARDINO: Thank you. 7 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Paula, I 8 don't feel like we have fully informed you and I 9 guess we talked about notification. After 10 notification there would quickly be decisions 11 made about the type of protective action that 12 might be useful. And I'm going to ask 13 Mr. Baldauf to talk about how those protective 14 actions are formulated and then go back to the 15 State Police and talk about how they're 16 implemented. 17 So formulation of protective action? 18 MR. BALDAUF: To walk back a second, 19 I think one of your comments is to the effect 20 that how is the emergency response plan reflect 21 the issue with the dry well not that we're saying 22 it has anything to do with the dry well. I just 23 wanted to make a point initially that the plan 24 itself, it's made to take into account whether 25 it's fast-breaking, short-breaking, short or long 30 1 duration. So the plan is designed in itself to 2 take care of the worst-case scenario, a mild-case 3 scenario and something that turns out to be 4 nothing. 5 Now interestingly one of these 6 things that -- for the fast-breaking scenario 7 that I had talked about that we had done in the 8 last year is the ability to look at the plant 9 data from our offices in Ewing which is almost 10 immediate notification from the State Police 11 something is happening. 12 So we would have the ability on the 13 engineering side to be able to put our 14 assessments together very early and if it truly 15 is fast-breaking to be able to put the protective 16 action recommendations together for the Governor 17 to consider. And they could be anywhere from 18 evacuations of certain areas, shelter in place, 19 depending on how we're tracking the plumb, but we 20 would be able to quickly get recommendations 21 together. 22 Now there's also recommendations 23 that would be coming from the utility itself. We 24 would discuss the recommendation, the Governor 25 would make the ultimate decision on where to go. 31 1 But fast-breaking versus short-breaking, I'm not 2 sure personally if there's a large difference 3 other than the fact that we go through the plan a 4 lot quicker. And that protective action 5 recommendation is before the Governor much 6 quicker than it would be because it has to. That 7 we're following the same steps in the plan. The 8 plan universally can handle whatever events that 9 unfold. 10 MS. GOTSCH: Yeah, okay. Well, I 11 don't want to take up everybody's time. Maybe 12 I'm just saying to you guys get your antennas 13 raised for October. We're praying that thing 14 holds, but we may have an emergency because we're 15 not getting any assurance that that dry well 16 liner is in good shape. And so you may get to 17 test your plan in October, that's all I'm saying. 18 Thank you. 19 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Okay. 20 Paula, before you leave the microphone -- 21 MS. GOTSCH: Yes. 22 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: -- I want 23 to deal a little bit with the questions about 24 radiation that you have -- 25 MS. GOTSCH: Oh, okay. 32 1 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: -- in the 2 guides. And I'll make one other statement and 3 that is we're always ready. 4 But in terms of the wording of the 5 statement I'll take a look at it because we are 6 trying to be very, very careful, to be very 7 general, and that's why we did quote National 8 Academy rather than make up something that we 9 would say ourselves. 10 The statement from the National 11 Academy is that it's there to say we have more 12 scientific evidence on the hazards of iodizing 13 radiation than most, if not all, environmental 14 agents. That said, it's interesting because we 15 have been studying radioactivity and it's effect 16 on humans over a very long period of time whether 17 it was medical radiation, whether it was the 18 study of the Hiroshima Nagasaki population after 19 the atomic bomb, long-term life-span study of 20 effects of radiation. 21 We have a lot of data of radiation 22 effects on real people. Not for every chemical, 23 for instance. We take data that has been on 24 bacteria, the data that's on laboratory animals 25 and then we extrapolate the humans. So we don't 33 1 always have as much data on separate chemical 2 substances as we really do have on radiation. We 3 have a lot of epidemiological evidence in that 4 case. 5 The second thing that you mentioned 6 is about when you addressed the Commission on 7 Radiation Protection which Paul sits on. 8 MS. GOTSCH: Yeah, I think he was 9 there. 10 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: And they 11 were discussing as you said in your statement MRI 12 on children. Not magnetic resonant imaging, 13 that's only magnetism -- 14 MS. GOTSCH: That's right, I made a 15 mistake. It was the scan. 16 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: -- computed 17 tomography. 18 MS. GOTSCH: Right. 19 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: And the CT 20 scan on children are at a level of somewhere 21 around 1000, 2000 to 10,000 millirem. And if you 22 look here in the statement, they talk about the 23 national average of 360 millirem to the average 24 person. So these are comparatively higher doses 25 than what people are getting from just living in 34 1 the environment. And those are at the low end of 2 what the Hiroshima Nagasaki survivors had. 3 And so that's why the concern is for 4 pediatric exposures to those CT zones. They're 5 comparatively high doses. Now the test may be 6 very medically necessary, but we are concerned 7 about repeated doses to children. 8 MS. GOTSCH: Okay. I just think 9 that the article as you read it and go point by 10 point or just get the feel of it, it speaks of a 11 reassurance about radiation that would certainly 12 not be in effect if we had an accident. We would 13 have, you know, maybe a little radiation or a 14 maybe massive radiation. We don't know until 15 we -- until the accident happens. 16 But when you read this, the general 17 public might be deluded into thinking, Well, we 18 don't have to worry about this nuclear plant in 19 our neighborhood because even if it goes off 20 because this radiation sounds pretty mild here. 21 I mean, it just doesn't sound like a bad thing. 22 And I think it speaks a certain 23 like, you know -- you know, we shouldn't -- I 24 don't think a public report should lull people 25 into a fall sense of security. I think you 35 1 should be honest with people. 2 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: We'll try 3 to revise in the next edition. 4 MS. GOTSCH: Thank you. 5 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Thank you. 6 Second speaker is Peggy Sturmfels. 7 MS. STURMFELS: Hi, Peggy Sturmfels, 8 Jackson, New Jersey, S-t-u-r-m-f-e-l-s. If I 9 stumble, you'll forgive me. 10 I have two questions, actually. 11 One is in July 6th and we brought this up in 12 front of the NRC, they said it was up to you 13 guys. It's about the battery backup. There was 14 a story in the press about battery backups for 15 emergency sirens at Oyster Creek, that there was 16 a lack of battery backups. 17 This was a problem in 2003 in 18 California when they had the earthquake. And 19 they had a backup plan, they went to door to door 20 with megaphones and fire trucks. And if we have 21 a similar plan, we don't have possibly the 22 earthquake problems. But with hurricanes and 23 flying trees and flooded waterways and possibly 24 outages of electric where garage doors could not 25 open, I think that this battery backup problem is 36 1 something that really needs to be addressed. 2 They went ahead and invested 3 $6 million to get battery backups for the 4 131 batteries that they had, that there was a 5 sense of confidence. I hope that we have some 6 sort of plan to make sure that the battery 7 backups are there and that that will be 8 publicized for public confidence. 9 The other thing is that you and I 10 had a discussion last year about the preschools 11 and you told me that there was going to be a 12 model ready this year for preschool evacuation 13 because I was really concerned that those 14 preschools do not have in hand a plan for 15 themselves. 16 And I also thought it was incumbent 17 upon the State of New Jersey and the officials to 18 have distributed those plans as opposed expecting 19 small day-care centers or even licensed sitters 20 in homes who have five or more children to be 21 given those when they're granted their licenses. 22 So that would go through Health and Human 23 Services not Senior Services. 24 So that's just something that I'm 25 wanting to hear about. It's about the plans for 37 1 the day-care centers. You said you'd have a 2 model. Thank you. 3 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Okay, let's 4 take both of -- you want to sit down? 5 MS. STURMFELS: Yes. 6 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Okay, sure 7 thing, Peggy. 8 Let's take both of those questions. 9 The first one is about backup emergency sirens. 10 SGT. SCARDINO: Yes, as far as the 11 siren component, the sirens are being maintained 12 by Exelon Corporation. If there is a siren 13 failure, we would know at the ROIC. On the 14 screen it would indicate a siren failure. And we 15 have agreements and practices and procedures with 16 the locals, OEM, police, fire organizations to do 17 what you describe is what we call "backup route 18 alerting." 19 We've -- since Katrina, FEMA's taken 20 a harder stand on evacuation in general and we 21 went out to all the emergency management offices 22 and we had them do their route alerting plans. 23 Because -- especially down at the southern site 24 and we're not talking about Salem North Creek 25 here tonight, but there's some rural areas out 38 1 there where it wouldn't be feasible to hear a 2 fireman talking on a public address system when 3 they live 1000 feet off the road. So we did 4 route alerting plans throughout the state, Ocean 5 County to be included in that. So that's one way 6 of backup alerting of the public. 7 The other way is the state has 8 purchased a reverse 911 system and we can 9 implement that as a backup to the route alerting 10 and in addition to. And we can broadcast 11 statewide or just segments of the state. So 12 that's the other component to that. 13 The day-care planning, although FEMA 14 hasn't come out with official regulations on 15 day-care planning, we're anticipating that to be 16 coming. But we did provide a shell, as I 17 mentioned, last year to the local OEM 18 coordinators to develop and work with their local 19 day-care planners that are licensed in the state. 20 Of course, there are "mom and pop" types of 21 day-care providers that are unlicensed that are 22 working, and we would have to identify those and 23 go out and do that. But this whole process is 24 still developing, it's not completed yet. We 25 haven't exercised it yet. 39 1 MS. STURMFELS: Thank you. 2 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: The court 3 stenographer needs you to stay near the 4 microphone. 5 MS. STURMFELS: Thanks for that, but 6 this is the third year I've asked the question 7 and the third time I'm still waiting. The 8 children are going to be in high school when the 9 day-care gets the information. 10 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Okay. 11 Janet Tauro. 12 MS. TAURO: Janet Tauro and I'm 13 speaking on behalf of the New Jersey 14 Environmental Federation and Grammy (phonetic), 15 T-a-u-r-o, and I live in Brick, New Jersey. 16 Uhm...and just a little bit of 17 follow-up to Peggy's question on the day-care 18 centers. Truly please, please do something about 19 that because this is the third year that we 20 brought it up. And not only the day-care 21 centers, but the nursery schools, the private 22 schools, the parochial schools, they lack a plan. 23 And I'm going to talk a little bit about the 24 evacuation plan. 25 Students at All Saints Regional 40 1 Catholic School in Manahawken, that's a private 2 school, the eighth graders became so concerned 3 about the lack of evacuation for their school 4 that they decided to do a study of their own. 5 And they studied how effective an evacuation 6 would be in their area. The students did it 7 within their school and they interviewed parents. 8 And what they found was a plan wouldn't work 9 because most of the parents didn't even know 10 about one. 11 So I guess what I'd like to ask you 12 about your evacuation plan is how are you 13 publicizing it? Because I know that there are so 14 many people that live in this area that don't 15 even know that there's a nuclear power plant, let 16 alone an evacuation plan. So my question would 17 be, do you do mailers, do you do flyers, do you 18 do focus groups? And if you do do focus groups, 19 what have you learned from those focus groups. 20 And the other thing that I should 21 have said up front is, you know, I commend your 22 Citizen Corps, and I do commend all the work you 23 do, and I do commend the work that you have put 24 into this plan because it is very, very obvious 25 that you have a commitment to our safety and 41 1 you're taking our safety very seriously. 2 However, the reason that we come 3 here every year and bring up concerns is not to 4 question your professionalism or the dedication 5 of the First Responders, we just feel that the 6 magnitude of a fast-released radiological 7 emergency would dwarf the best of plans that 8 there would be a lot of people who would be 9 injured and who would die. And, you know, those 10 First Responders especially because those are our 11 husbands, those are our brothers, those are our 12 nephews, our neighbors, our wives. So I just 13 needed to make that clear, also. 14 Now I wanted very much talk to about 15 the fuel pool. The State of New Jersey has 16 serious concerns about the elevated fuel pools. 17 To the extent that they do have a legal challenge 18 going through the 3rd Circuit Court as does New 19 York. Thousands and thousands of pounds of 20 highly radioactive fuel in elevated fuel pools. 21 Heaven forbid there was ever an emergency, there 22 was ever an attack and a zirconium planning fire 23 occurred, the results would be devastating. And 24 when you talk about a ten-mile radius for your 25 plan, that entirely underestimates the magnitude 42 1 of the situation. 2 Now here we go back to the National 3 Academy of Sciences -- and I don't want to cherry 4 pick from there like, you know, we're saying you 5 cherry picked from there, but you know, the 6 National Academy of Sciences did say that were 7 such an event to happen at Oyster Creek, that the 8 effects would effect the entire eastern seaboard. 9 So just by its limitation to a 10 ten-mile radius is an incredible underestimation 11 of what could happen. 12 That's about it. Here we are again, 13 I'll bring a cake next year. Thank you. 14 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Thank you, 15 Janet. 16 I guess the first question is how is 17 the plan publicized? 18 SGT. SCARDINO: I'm going to defer 19 to Jerry and he's going to follow up on the 20 school because he works with them here in Ocean 21 County. 22 MR. RENNER: As far as the 23 evacuation plan, that of course like most of our 24 plans is updated annually. This is the latest 25 edition of it. We refer to it as the EP2 Plan. 43 1 That includes every private and -- 2 MS. TAURO: Oh, good. 3 MR. RENNER: -- public school within 4 the ten-mile EPZ. 5 As part of the training we go out as 6 myself and my colleagues go out to the every 7 superintendent and principal in the EPZ and 8 provide them annual training and updates on the 9 plan and copies of it. 10 All Saints, like most schools, is 11 scheduled in the summer months. And, ma'am, if 12 you give me your card, I'd be glad to let you go 13 with me if -- 14 MS. TAURO: That's very kind of you. 15 I totally take your word for it. But the 16 day-care centers, the nursery schools, but that's 17 a part of it, but that's not included in that 18 plan -- 19 MR. RENNER: Well, actually it is. 20 Day-care centers are covered to the extent that 21 we have New Jersey Transit buses ready to be 22 deployed to pick up day-care students. 23 MS. TAURO: All right. 24 MR. RENNER: And that's where I give 25 them the plan. If you'd like a copy of it, I 44 1 could give you one. 2 MS. TAURO: So each day-care center 3 and each nursery school in the area knows about 4 an evacuation plan? 5 MR. RENNER: They should and they're 6 required to have their own evacuation plan as far 7 as that is... 8 MS. TAURO: Okay. Thank you. 9 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: The other 10 question that you asked, and again we're not 11 going to get into why there might be an accident 12 or what events might lead to an accident, but I'd 13 just like Paul Baldauf to explain what we do 14 beyond the ten-mile zone because I certainly 15 agree with you that wind blowing doesn't stop, 16 there's a wall at ten miles, so we have to plan 17 further out. 18 Paul? 19 MR. BALDAUF: Past ten miles and 20 we're on a cycle, that would be five years we do 21 this, it's a 50 mile ingestion pathway. So 22 you're going 15 miles, you're pulling an 23 additional 40 miles where you're looking at 24 the -- through the water developed in those 25 areas. You've making multiple determinations. 45 1 Depending on the scenario you're playing out, is 2 it safe to go back, is it necessary to do 3 anything different as far as recommendations? 4 But what this does which the 5 ten-mile doesn't do as well is you're bringing in 6 a much larger group of individuals that 7 potentially would be effected during an event. 8 So even though their circle isn't annual, that 9 cycle is there, that there are -- there's that 10 would be called into play to assist, volunteer 11 and be acknowledgeable about it during the 12 50-mile ingestion pathway exercises. 13 It's a huge undertaking is the 14 reason the cycle is what it is. That that is 15 another way that we bring in a lot of people, any 16 that work from volunteers to experts to assist us 17 in events such as this. 18 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: And there 19 is one other piece that you talked about. And 20 you talked about in the magnitude of this kind of 21 event how could the state and local folks be able 22 to handle it. And as the magnitude, we would 23 call on the federal government for assistance. 24 So I wonder if Sgt. Scardino would 25 just talk about what kinds of things are in place 46 1 to bring the federal government into its system. 2 SGT. SCARDINO: Yeah, uhm, as I 3 mentioned earlier, the ROIC has federal agencies 4 already embedded in it and the staff there every 5 day. But as Paul correctly mentioned, there is 6 no ten-mile walls going to stop the effects of 7 radiation and scenario as you described. 8 And we can expand that emergency 9 planning zone as far as evacuations by deploying 10 other type of resources on the Garden State 11 Parkway. It's just a matter of notifying the 12 next station up to bring more resources and to 13 expand that. It's not fixed in stone that we're 14 going to stop at ten miles and that's it, but we 15 certainly can expand that. 16 If we don't have the resources, we 17 will definitely be under the state of emergency 18 which allows the Governor to activate more 19 additional resources and request federal response 20 from the federal government, from FEMA, from the 21 NRC and then like that. So -- 22 MS. TAURO: No -- like I said, we 23 appreciate the thoroughness of your job and the 24 job that you do. We just feel like we shouldn't 25 have to live under this risk, so thank you very 47 1 much. 2 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Thank you. 3 The fourth commenter, Jeff Brown. 4 And this is my last card, so if people want to 5 speak, fill out cards and give them to Nick or 6 Carol to bring them up. 7 Jeff? 8 MR. BROWN: Jeff Brown, B-r-o-w-n. 9 I live in Brick. This is my fifth evacuation 10 hearing, I believe. And I would like to commend 11 you for doing the assessment or the review on a 12 terrorist attack given your contention about -- 13 your concern with that. 14 And when I first read the evacuation 15 plan about three years ago, one of the things 16 that most concerned me is that scenarios are all 17 very slow, evolving you've got two hours, you've 18 got four hours, you've got six hours before this 19 gets out of hand. So I would like to know as a 20 result of your review, what changes did you make 21 in your -- or what results did you get in your 22 calculations regarding expected injuries and 23 fatalities in this kind of a scenario compared to 24 the slow evolving scenario? So what difference 25 did it make when you did your review of -- like 48 1 in the terrorist attack and what difference that 2 would make for the evacuation plan? Because 3 there are estimates on how many of us are going 4 to die from cancer and be exposed, et cetera, 5 et cetera, I assume that they're appreciative 6 higher in this scenario as opposed to a 7 slow-moving process? 8 Well, that's just a question -- I'll 9 just get out the questions I have, think about 10 that one. 11 SGT. SCARDINO: I think Paul had 12 mentioned earlier that the plan would be 13 implemented just in a faster method than what we 14 refer to as a designed-based accident that you're 15 referring to, I guess. But I don't know as far 16 as deaths and casualties from radiation exposures 17 what we would expect, I wouldn't have -- 18 MR. BROWN: I guess so that's not 19 part of the plan in other words, which is -- 20 okay, then to me that's one of the problems of 21 having a standard of saying does a plan work or 22 doesn't it work. At some of the NRC hearings, in 23 particular, we're given numbers of how many of us 24 are going to die under certain scenarios and 25 that's acceptable and more would not be 49 1 acceptable. 2 But one of the problems with the 3 plan is that it doesn't seem to be a realistic 4 standard to say, okay, it's not workable. We 5 don't accept this as a working plan because too 6 many of us are going to be exposed, too many of 7 us are going to die. So I think that the plan 8 needs some standards and indicators. That's -- 9 SGT. SCARDINO: We do have 10 contingencies for internal contamination inside 11 evacuees that they're sent to a hospital and so 12 forth for that type of event. And as a parallel 13 action, action emergency medical services are 14 activated if we do have casualties along the 15 route, traffic accidents and so forth. So we do 16 have contingencies for those types of events. 17 MR. BROWN: Okay, thank you. And 18 then regarding the radiological and environmental 19 monitoring program and having expanded it to more 20 kinds of fish than just the shellfish, I'm 21 wondering what changes you saw by expanding your 22 testing. Does it indicate the same level amounts 23 of radio leakage or do we have a greater sense of 24 it, less of it? 25 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Do you want 50 1 to give us all of your questions and then I'll 2 dole them out. 3 MR. BROWN: Sure. Regarding the 4 act, the plan, and I understand you've got a 5 standard plan that's generic, specifics apply to 6 different facilities. But I wonder as I go 7 around and see construction and particular bridge 8 replacements and given the limited number of 9 arteries we have for getting out of Ocean County, 10 when DOT proposes a major construction program, 11 does this get factored into the plan and how does 12 that work or is that just you get there and the 13 cops have to detour you to some other place? 14 I guess just for the record, I once 15 again say I'm not convinced that we're going to 16 all get out of here in a timely fashion 17 particularly if there was a fast-breaking action. 18 I have come to conclude as the rest 19 of the Asbury Park Press last year after the 20 hearing, the First Responders are going to do 21 their best. I thank you for that. I thank them 22 for their courage and for their intention. But I 23 just would be on the public record saying that we 24 need an energy source that does not require an 25 evacuation plan. 51 1 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Okay. 2 Addressing the issue about what the additional 3 fish sample has shown, Paul, you want to address 4 that? 5 MR. BALDAUF: Yes. I believe there 6 are copies of our environmental report on the 7 table which goes into -- 8 MR. BROWN: I think I did get one of 9 those, yes. 10 MR. BALDAUF: -- great detail of 11 what we found last year and compared it to 12 previous years. The bottom line is that the 13 additional samples we have taken hasn't shown any 14 difference in what we have seen over the previous 15 years which is a good thing obviously. 16 MR. BROWN: Uh-huh. 17 MR. BALDAUF: And our purpose of 18 taking additional samples, looking at different 19 species to see if there is anything out there, 20 but our expansion at this point has revealed 21 nothing. No evidence of anything additional and 22 it's just been a standard that we've seen over of 23 the years. I think the report does a good job in 24 going back over the previous years as long as 25 it's in place to give you a good picture of what 52 1 we've seen. 2 MR. BROWN: Thank you. 3 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: And the 4 other question, Tom, I'm going ask you to address 5 that. How do you incorporate improvements in 6 roads, transportation? 7 SGT. SCARDINO: Whenever a major 8 road construction project is undergoing and it 9 effects one of our evacuation routes in the 10 Emergency Planning Zone, we work with the New 11 Jersey DOT. And we actually have a unit within 12 the division that is called a "Traffic Incident 13 Management Unit," and they work with New Jersey 14 DOT to alter our evacuation route, if needed. If 15 there's going to be a bridge closure, for 16 example, that's going to effect our evacuation 17 route, we'll make compensatory measures for that. 18 But, yes, the answer to that, yes, 19 we do work with NJDOT on those projects. 20 MR. BROWN: And how did the 21 collision with the Lacey Road Bridge on the 22 Garden State Parkway that tied up the parkway for 23 a day, how does something as specific as that get 24 factored into what you're doing or you're just on 25 higher alert or does it trigger something? 53 1 SGT. SCARDINO: We monitored that 2 event and we worked with DOT to find out what was 3 the analysis, how long is that road going to be 4 out and so forth and countermeasures is 5 implemented as needed, yes. 6 MR. BROWN: So when we're stuck in 7 traffic, we should call you just to see how long 8 we're going to be? 9 SGT. SCARDINO: Don't call me. 10 MR. BROWN: Thank you. 11 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Matthew 12 Runfola? 13 MR. RUNFOLA: My name is Matthew 14 Runfola. Last name is R-u-n-f-o-l-a. 15 My question is transportation. I 16 mentioned this to you and I got the answer for 17 myself and I just wanted to address it for the 18 public. 19 What does the evacuation plan 20 implemented as far as transportation specifically 21 with New Jersey Transit in the event of an 22 emergency for evacuation? 23 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Thank you. 24 Tom? 25 SGT. SCARDINO: Thank you, sir. 54 1 I'll let Jerry answer that question regarding 2 New Jersey Transit. 3 MR. RENNER: The New Jersey Transit 4 buses are mustered at the Lakehurst Naval Air 5 Station for use in an evacuation. They are 6 escorted by New Jersey State Police Troopers. 7 They go around predescribed -- preinscribed 8 routes that are in the brochure and pick up 9 individuals needing transportation. 10 That's the shortest answer to your 11 question as I can give you. 12 MR. BROWN: Okay, thank you very 13 much. 14 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Next 15 commenter is Joan Rubin. 16 MS. RUBIN: Hello, my name is Joan 17 Rubin, R-u-b-i-n, and I live in Pine Beach. 18 And I sort of feel like a regular at 19 these because I've been living here in Pine Beach 20 for many years and I've come to these meetings 21 with hope in my heart many times. And I must say 22 that I am completely depressed. Look at the 23 group in the room. Now I say that there's been 24 attrition. I've been amount meetings where the 25 whole place was packed. At least, you know, that 55 1 isn't a huge showing, but people are weary. 2 They're weary of this because while 3 I applaud your efforts for hurricanes, and I 4 really think they're good, I've looked at them, 5 but they're qualitatively different when it comes 6 to radiation. And you must take that into 7 account and you don't because there is no rhyme 8 or reason to anything you are saying here today. 9 Because in the event of a radiological emergency, 10 traffic will not flow or be directed as it is for 11 a hurricane. 12 As I said, the best way I can put it 13 is there are qualitative differences which I 14 don't hear here. And the fact that we are living 15 in the shadow of a plant which is decaying and 16 decrepit, even though it is not being 17 acknowledged by this panel, I think is a 18 testimony to the lack of public interest. 19 People's -- I felt like ignoring tonight's 20 meeting, but you know, I'm sort of what they say 21 an old who can't learn new tricks. And I come 22 here out of habit because I feel it's my public 23 duty to make some kind of a showing. But I am 24 distressed and disturbed. 25 And I thank you for your efforts. 56 1 And I know that you are intelligent people and 2 you know that if there was a dry well emergency 3 for instance, that what would happen would be a 4 token. People would flea -- the First 5 Responders, sure they're brave, but I mean, you 6 know, people react -- look, I could go into a lot 7 of different things, but I make my case and I 8 mean I'm making my case and I just want to say 9 the thing is hopeless and we all know it. Thank 10 you. 11 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Thank you 12 for your comments. 13 I have run out of people who are 14 registered to speak. Does anyone else want to 15 speak and address the group? 16 Janet, please? 17 MS. TAURO: Sorry, I was -- 18 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: The court 19 stenographer really needs to record. 20 MS. TAURO: I'm sorry. 21 I just wanted to say one thing more, 22 I'm sorry, about the dry well. I think it's 23 really important for you all to know that we've 24 made a formal request to Exelon and also to the 25 NRC that the very -- uhm...oh, no, you know, it's 57 1 very hard for me to talk off the top of my head 2 sometimes -- for the very highly technical 3-D 3 testing which Exelon has committed to do which 4 will give the best idea about the structural 5 integrity of the dry well. 6 Those tests are scheduled to be done 7 in April, you know, right when their license 8 renewal will probably begin. They'll probably be 9 relicensed. Those tests are being done in April. 10 We had asked, we had requested that that 3-D 11 testing be done in October or prior to October, 12 prior to the relicensing. 13 Why not get all of your information 14 on that dry well and let's see whether or not it 15 really does meet the minimum standard code and 16 let's see whether or not it is structurally sound 17 to last another year, two, 20 or whatever. Let's 18 get those tests done before you refuel and we 19 were denied. And I think that that's something 20 the public needs to realize also. I mean, that 21 was not a big request, that was asking to move up 22 the test by six months. What's the big deal? 23 And we also ask that those 24 results -- and actually the State of New Jersey, 25 your department, ask that those test results and 58 1 the raw data be made public so that it could be 2 independently reviewed. And we are -- 3 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: I got that 4 letter. 5 MS. TAURO: Yeah, I got that letter. 6 And appreciated that letter. It was a great 7 letter, yes. 8 Dr. Lipoti wrote that letter and 9 said the public deserves to know exactly what the 10 measurements are. Don't give us just a summary 11 of your conclusions, give us the hard data, hard 12 evidence. Not that I'm going to sit down and 13 review it, but we have experts that we've hired 14 who will sit down and review it, and that request 15 was denied. 16 Now, you know, if you're really 17 feeling great about the dry well and you're 18 feeling great the structural integrity of the dry 19 well, you would take that information and fly it 20 in a banner, you would take out advertisements on 21 it. You wouldn't keep the results private, you 22 would share them. You'd share them with the 23 public so that the public could be reassured, and 24 thank you very much for doing that. 25 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Thank you 59 1 very much for your comments, Janet. And of 2 course that is not the subject of this hearing 3 which is why we're not going to address it, but 4 the subject of the hearing is the radiological -- 5 Oh, there is someone who wants to 6 speak? 7 MS. STURFELS: I want to follow-up 8 to the answer to my question. 9 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Come up to 10 the microphone. 11 MS. STURFELS: Peg Sturmfels. 12 We're going to go down and we're 13 going to pick up the children up in the New 14 Jersey Transit buses is what I believe he said 15 with the day-care centers? Okay. 16 How -- one of the day-care centers I 17 talked to had 90 infants. We just can't pick 18 them up and throw them in the bottom of the bus. 19 Well, we could and not transport them far. I'm 20 not getting an understanding of why you as a body 21 can't make a requirement that doing business as a 22 day-care provider with their license which -- 23 Mr. Baldauf, no, you're not children services -- 24 so that would come through their licensing, that 25 they would be required to receive in their packet 60 1 of licensing material how you're going to get 2 these kids out from the Goddard School from the 3 Little TLC School. I mean, there are a bunch of 4 kids down there. 5 And the licensing -- they do 6 business and they get licenses from the state. 7 They should be given this information when they 8 get this license so they can give it to parents 9 who may have kids in the Goddard School and in 10 the kindergarten across town and in the private 11 school across the way, and the All Saints School 12 people told me they were not included in the bus 13 pick up by the staff for the township buses. 14 So I mean, it's just -- that was 15 what I was told that they know that. It's a 16 parochial school. You've got, you know, 500 kids 17 there and there's no bus picking them up. So I 18 mean, that's just part of the problem. That's 19 what perception is. This is a perception. And 20 so I wanted to bring it to your attention. 21 And when you shelter in place, you 22 have to shelter these children in place, you need 23 diapers and formula and special baby foods. I 24 mean, you know, you're not talking about people 25 who, you know, have been potty-trained, you know. 61 1 They have special needs. And I am really 2 concerned about that as I am with assisted 3 caring. 4 When we had that massive fire two 5 years ago, we had nursing homes that were not 6 evacuated the way they should have been because 7 there was no one to take them. And I just think 8 that this is something we really -- this is a 9 very vulnerable population of people who have 10 been massively put into this place years after 11 this plant was built. And, you know, it's not 12 anybody's responsibility. It hasn't been 13 Exelon's or GPU or anybody's responsibility 14 despite the fact that we have thousands of people 15 who shouldn't be in the area of the fire and no 16 one wants to take the responsibility for that 17 and, you know, we've got to. 18 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Thank you, 19 Peggy. 20 Do you want to talk about the school 21 evacuation plan? 22 SGT. SCARDINO: Mrs. Sturmfels, I 23 just want to thank you for your comments. And, 24 you know, the purpose of these public hearings is 25 to receive comments from the public and we take 62 1 that information from these hearings and we may 2 make changes to our plans reflective of some of 3 the comments. And some of the things you 4 mentioned tonight are very valid concerning 5 day-care planning. 6 I believe, Jerry Renner, if I'm 7 wrong, All Saints School would be relocated to 8 another day-care facility? Right, so they would 9 be relocated, I believe, to Stockton State 10 College outside of the emergency planning zone 11 where Jerry referring to the New Jersey Transit 12 buses in the EV2 Plan to go to the day-care 13 centers to pick up the children. 14 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: And James 15 Pasqualo will address the issue of the nursing 16 home evacuation. 17 MR. PASQUALO: Yeah. One of the 18 assets that the Department of Health brings to 19 such a situation is the emergency medical 20 services afterwards the task force, EMS Task 21 Force. And giving your example of the fires a 22 year ago this past May in Ocean County I think 23 was a good example on how the task force can 24 function during such an emergency and that was a 25 fire evacuation, but it was a very similar 63 1 situation in a radiological emergency. 2 I can tell you that since I, one, 3 live there and the fire was about a quarter mile 4 from my house and also I was having been on the 5 scene, did a lot of coordination with people from 6 our shop in terms of the evacuation that they did 7 do, I thought, a spectacular job of trying to get 8 to the nursing homes in a timely fashion that 9 were physically threatened by the fire. 10 Also complicated by a -- the 11 evacuation routes were compromised by the 12 location of the fire thus eliminating the access 13 and egress from the area. 14 And notwithstanding all those 15 factors, they were successful in garnering 16 services from all, literally all corners of the 17 state of New Jersey, staging these people at the 18 high school and getting them relocated in the 19 time frame that I thought was very good and 20 consistent with the situation. 21 So I would say to you that the 22 evacuation of long-term and short-term care 23 facilities is something we take very seriously. 24 I would say to you that there are a very viable 25 plan there to do that. It's not something that's 64 1 been neglected in the plan. And in fact it was 2 given a great deal of attention not only to 3 health care facilities, but also to our children. 4 You know, the Department and the 5 DEP, the State Police have gone to great lengths 6 to deal with the issue of evacuation should that 7 ever become necessary. We put pediatric KI at 8 the disposal of Ocean County. Every school in 9 the ETZ has access to pediatric doses whether 10 it's solid or in a liquid form. 11 So, you know, addressing the special 12 care population is very important to us and I 13 would say to you that we give it a very high 14 priority in our planning process. 15 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Thank you, 16 Mr. Pasqualo. 17 MS. RUBIN: May I just speak for a 18 moment? 19 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Please come 20 up to the microphone. 21 MS. RUBIN: I wasn't planning to 22 speak again -- my name is Joan Rubin and I live 23 in Pine Beach -- but when I heard that response, 24 I felt I had to give counter-respond. 25 Exactly what I was talking about, a 65 1 fire and a radiological emergency are two 2 different things qualitatively. You're not under 3 a radioactive cloud, people aren't desperate to 4 get away. They're willing to follow the orders 5 of the police. The police show there are ways 6 out. But if you have a radiological emergency, 7 people are going to be panicked beyond belief. 8 And until we accept that situation you'll never 9 have a workable plan. You can't point to 10 something like an evacuation of a fire and 11 compare it to what the response would be. 12 Look at Chernobyl, for instance, 13 look at the horrible destruction that was done. 14 The people or still -- there was tremendous 15 clouds of radiation, to put it mildly. Now 16 you're not going to have people moving around in 17 an ordinarily fashion, and we've got to accept 18 that. I mean, somehow or another that has to be 19 taken into account. 20 And that's why I really feel that 21 all of these little plans are great, they're 22 absolutely great for a hurricane, a fire any 23 emergency of that type. But you're dealing with 24 something fundamentally different with radiation 25 and that's the thing that seems to be hard to 66 1 understand. Thank you. 2 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Thank you 3 for your comments. 4 Are there any further comments? 5 I'm going to ask if any of the panel 6 members have any summation statements that they 7 want to make. 8 Tom? 9 SGT. SCARDINO: I'd just -- again, 10 I'd like to thank everybody for their comments 11 and our office will take those comments back and 12 study those. We revise the plan with the New 13 Jersey DEP and the Department of Health and 14 Senior Services on a regular basis. So we will 15 collectively meet and go over these comments. 16 And again I appreciate you coming out tonight and 17 spending your time with us. 18 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Paul? 19 MR. BALDAUF: I'd like to add to 20 Tom's comments. Thank you very much for coming 21 out tonight. We'll continue to do our best to 22 improve the effectiveness of the plan working 23 with the all the agencies that you see here. 24 Thank you. 25 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: Jim? 67 1 MR. PASQUALO: Well, I'd like to 2 thank everybody for taking the time to discuss it 3 with us. As always if you have something that 4 pops into your mind subsequent to this meeting, 5 as always happens, certainly I'm available as I'm 6 sure everybody else is to talk to you offline 7 about it to the extent that you would like to do 8 that. We have limited time here today, but I 9 always welcome the opportunity to discuss these 10 issues with you. I want to thank you again for 11 your attention. 12 HEARING OFFICER LIPOTI: I'm going 13 to close it by saying thank you very, very much 14 for coming and for your comments and this hearing 15 is closed. 16 17 18 (HEARING CONCLUDED AT 8:20 P.M.) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 68 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 I, LINDA P. CALAMARI, a Professional 4 Reporter and Notary Public of the State of New 5 Jersey, do hereby certify the foregoing to be a 6 true and accurate transcript of my original 7 stenographic notes taken at the time and place 8 hereinbefore set forth. 9 10 11 ----------------------------- 12 LINDA P. CALAMARI 13 14 15 16 Dated: AUGUST 29, 2008. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25