1 1 STATE OF NEW JERSEY 2 LOCAL UNIT ALIGNMENT, REORGANIZATION AND 3 CONSOLIDATION COMISSION 4 - - - 5 6 7 FORMAL MEETING 8 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 9 10 11 12 LOCATION: Department of Community Affairs 13 101 South Broad Street 14 Trenton, New Jersey 08625 15 DATE: Tuesday, April 8, 2008 16 TIME: 9:10 a.m. to 10:00 a.m. 17 18 19 - - - 20 GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 21 Golden Crest Corporate Center 22 2277 State Highway #33, Suite 410 23 Trenton, New Jersey 08690 24 (609) 989-9199 - (800) 368-7652 (TOLL FREE) 25 www.renziassociates.com 2 1 C O M M I S S I O N M E M B E R S: 2 3 JOHN H. FISHER, III, Chair 4 JOSEPH V. DORIA, JR., Commissioner 5 JANE KENNY 6 MARVIN REED 7 ROBERT F. CASEY 8 MAYOR GARY PASSANANTE, Somerdale Borough 9 STEVEN M. COZZA 10 DAVID ROUSSEAU, Treasurer 11 12 C O M M I S S I O N P R O F E S S I O N A L S: 13 14 PATRICIA STERN, D.A.G. 15 STACY SPERA, Secretary 16 SUSAN JACOBUCCI, Director, Local Government 17 Services 18 MARC PFEIFFER, Deputy Director, Local Government 19 Services 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 I N D E X PAGE 2 3 MARC PFEIFFER ............................. 17 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 COMMISSIONER DORIA: Good morning. 2 I'd like welcome everyone to the first meeting of 3 the Local Unit Alignment, Reorganization and 4 Consolidation Commission. We have eight of the 5 members here present. 6 The first thing we have to do is 7 swear in all the members of the Commission. So 8 we'd like to get that done. 9 MS. JACOBUCCI: Pat Stern from the 10 Attorney General's Office will give you your oath. 11 If you can all stand up, all the Commission 12 members stand up. 13 MS. STERN: Ms. Kenny, would you 14 raise your right hand, please? 15 MS. KENNY: I, Jane Kenny, do 16 solemnly swear that I will support the 17 Constitution of the United States and the 18 Constitution of the State of New Jersey; and that 19 I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same 20 and to the governments established in the United 21 States and in this state under the authority of 22 the people; and that I will faithfully, 23 impartially, and justly perform all the duties of 24 the office of member of the Local Unit Alignment, 25 Reorganization and Consolidation Commission, 5 1 according to the best of my ability, so help me 2 God. 3 MS. STERN: Mr. Reed, would you 4 raise your right hand? 5 MR. REED: I, Marvin Reed, do 6 solemnly swear that I will support the 7 Constitution of the United States and the 8 Constitution of the State of New Jersey; and that 9 I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same 10 and to the governments established in the United 11 States and in this state under the authority of 12 the people; and that I will faithfully, 13 impartially, and justly perform all the duties of 14 the office of member of the Local Unit Alignment, 15 Reorganization and Consolidation Commission, 16 according to the best of my ability, so help me 17 God. 18 MS. STERN: Mr. Casey. 19 MR. CASEY: I, Robert Casey, do 20 solemnly swear that I will support the 21 Constitution of the United States and the 22 Constitution of the State of New Jersey; and that 23 I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same 24 and to the governments established in the United 25 States and in this state under the authority of 6 1 the people; and that I will faithfully, 2 impartially, and justly perform all the duties of 3 the office of member of the Local Unit Alignment, 4 Reorganization and Consolidation Commission, 5 according to the best of my ability, so help me 6 God. 7 MS. STERN: Mr. Passanante. 8 MAYOR PASSANANTE: I, Gary 9 Passanante, do solemnly swear that I will support 10 the Constitution of the United States and the 11 Constitution of the State of New Jersey; and that 12 I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same 13 and to the governments established in the United 14 States and in this state under the authority of 15 the people; and that I will faithfully, 16 impartially, and justly perform all the duties of 17 the office of member of the Local Unit Alignment, 18 Reorganization and Consolidation Commission, 19 according to the best of my ability, so help me 20 God. 21 MS. STERN: Commissioner. 22 COMMISSIONER DORIA: I, Joseph 23 Doria, Jr., do solemnly swear that I will support 24 the Constitution of the United States and the 25 Constitution of the State of New Jersey; and that 7 1 I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same 2 and to the governments established in the United 3 States and in this state under the authority of 4 the people; and that I will faithfully, 5 impartially, and justly perform all the duties of 6 the office of member of the Local Unit Alignment, 7 Reorganization and Consolidation Commission, 8 according to the best of my ability, so help me 9 God. 10 MS. STERN: Mr. Fisher. 11 MR. FISHER: I, John H. Fisher, III, 12 do solemnly swear that I will support the 13 Constitution of the United States and the 14 Constitution of the State of New Jersey; and that 15 I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same 16 and to the governments established in the United 17 States and in this state under the authority of 18 the people; and that I will faithfully, 19 impartially, and justly perform all the duties of 20 the office of member of the Local Unit Alignment, 21 Reorganization and Consolidation Commission, 22 according to the best of my ability, so help me 23 God. 24 MS. STERN: Mr. Cozza. 25 MR. COZZA: I, Steven Cozza, do 8 1 solemnly swear that I will support the 2 Constitution of the United States and the 3 Constitution of the State of New Jersey; and that 4 I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same 5 and to the governments established in the United 6 States and in this state under the authority of 7 the people; and that I will faithfully, 8 impartially, and justly perform all the duties of 9 the office of member of the Local Unit Alignment, 10 Reorganization and Consolidation Commission, 11 according to the best of my ability, so help me 12 God. 13 MS. STERN: Mr. Rousseau. 14 TREASURER ROUSSEAU: I, David 15 Rousseau, do solemnly swear that I will support 16 the Constitution of the United States and the 17 Constitution of the State of New Jersey; and that 18 I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same 19 and to the governments established in the United 20 States and in this state under the authority of 21 the people; and that I will faithfully, 22 impartially, and justly perform all the duties of 23 the office of member of the Local Unit Alignment, 24 Reorganization and Consolidation Commission, 25 according to the best of my ability, so help me 9 1 God. 2 COMMISSIONER DORIA: At this point, 3 why don't we stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. 4 - - - 5 (Pledge of Allegiance.) 6 - - - 7 COMMISSIONER DORIA: We'll have a 8 roll call and then I'm going to ask the Governor 9 to make a few comments. 10 Can we have a roll call, please, 11 Stacy? 12 MS. SPERA: Commissioner Joseph 13 Doria. 14 COMMISSIONER DORIA: Here. 15 MS. SPERA: Treasurer David 16 Rousseau. 17 TREASURER ROUSSEAU: Here. 18 MS. SPERA: John Fisher. 19 MR. FISHER: Here. 20 MS. SPERA: Mayor Gary Passanante. 21 MAYOR PASSANANTE: Here. 22 MS. SPERA: Steven Cozza. 23 MR. COZZA: Here. 24 MS. SPERA: Jane Kenny. 25 MS. KENNY: Here. 10 1 MS. SPERA: Marvin Reed. 2 MR. REED: Here. 3 MS. SPERA: Robert Casey. 4 MR. CASEY: Here. 5 COMMISSIONER DORIA: We have a 6 quorum present. 7 I have the privilege right now to 8 introduce to you a man who has committed himself 9 to the State of New Jersey and committed himself, 10 guarantee that we do the best job possible in the 11 most efficient manner, and that has been a 12 supporter of working with the communities of the 13 State to provide to our citizens the best possible 14 services at least possible cost; that's the 15 Governor of the State of New Jersey, Governor John 16 Corzine. 17 GOVERNOR CORZINE: Thank you, Joe. 18 First of all, it was great to see 19 you all get "Local Unit Alignment, Reorganization 20 and Consolidation Commission" out. LUARCC will 21 live in memory. 22 Let me start by saying thank you. 23 You all, all of you, are true public servants in 24 your own right from what background that you have 25 already given to your communities, and I thank you 11 1 for that service. I think all of you in one form 2 or another have struggled with this question of 3 the proliferation of the wide dispersion of 4 governance units in our State. I was talking with 5 Jane, and I think these issues were the same 6 challenges at another time in another 7 administration as they are today, and they have 8 been for everyone. And many of you have taken on 9 that challenge in the day-to-day activities of the 10 world that you work in. And I hope we can all 11 work together to actually do what Joe outlined 12 within the context of the law, that we find a more 13 optimal mix of governance that will reduce 14 administrative cost, that will look for economies 15 of scale, and ultimately lower the cost of 16 providing the services in government that society 17 is providing in the State of New Jersey and 18 ultimately tax relief and certainly 19 sustainability. 20 That's the purpose. These questions 21 have been around awhile in New Jersey, about 234 22 years, I guess, on Home Rule. And so no one has 23 any reason to believe that this is an easy 24 problem. I commend the Legislature for actually 25 looking for a bipartisan way for people to come 12 1 together and make recommendations on how we can 2 get that to some movement in this area. And it 3 will take a lot of skill, both in the preparation 4 of the ideas, but it will also take forceful 5 effort on the part of those of us in public life 6 to call for the actions that you all ultimately, I 7 think, will recommend. And certainly, you have my 8 support in that process. 9 I want to say, you have under 10 Commissioner Doria and his staff, a fairly thin 11 staff, let me assure you, with regard to a lot of 12 these issue, top professionals that will do 13 everything they can to try to provide the support 14 that's necessary to be able to make good 15 decisions. We need good data. We need reasonable 16 thought about how that data is applied. If we 17 don't have that -- sometimes you can get 18 unintended outcomes out of the best of intended 19 decisions. So I hope we will all work together. 20 I feel very strongly that you all 21 have the capacity to come up with creative ideas, 22 that working together with the Legislature, with 23 the Governor's Office, all elements of our 24 government, that we'll be able to move forward and 25 really bring about consolidation, shared services, 13 1 and greater efficiency in government. So thank 2 you very, very much for what you're doing. 3 COMMISSIONER DORIA: Thank you, 4 Governor. 5 At this point I'm going to read the 6 Open Public Meetings announcement. This is to 7 notify you that the first meeting of the Local 8 Unit Alignment, Reorganization and Consolidation 9 Commission has been scheduled for Tuesday, April 8 10 at 9:00 a.m. at the Department of Community 11 Affairs Conference Room, 101 South Broad Street, 12 Trenton, New Jersey. Attached hereto is an agenda 13 for the meeting, and its anticipated that formal 14 action will be taken by the Commission with regard 15 to these items. 16 So at this point, the first item of 17 business is we're going to ask everyone to pick 18 their terms. The law requires that we stagger the 19 terms of the members of the Commission, the public 20 members of the Commission. So we ask you each to 21 pick from this envelope a card which will tell you 22 your term. As you know, we have one member 23 missing. One member still has to be appointed. 24 - - - 25 (Members select cards from 14 1 envelope.) 2 - - - 3 COMMISSIONER DORIA: For the record, 4 we'll ask you to give us your name and your term 5 so we can put it into the official record and have 6 that and we will keep track of that. 7 MR. FISHER: John Fisher, one year. 8 MR. COZZA: Steven Cozza, two years. 9 MS. KENNY: Jane Kenny, three years. 10 MR. REED: Marvin Reed, four year. 11 MR. CASEY: Bob Casey, five years. 12 MAYOR PASSANANTE: Gary Passanante, 13 five years. 14 GOVERNOR CORZINE: I'm going to 15 excuse myself, folks. Good luck to you. We'll 16 come back and we'll stay very much involved. And 17 I have a great deal of confidence in my new 18 Treasurer on his first day, David Rousseau also. 19 Joe, good luck. 20 COMMISSIONER DORIA: Thank you, 21 Governor. 22 Let us now move to the next item on 23 the agenda for the meeting. The next item is 24 organization of the Commission. 25 Let me just at this point introduce 15 1 Stacy Spera who will be the person who we will be 2 working with on my staff. Stacy, why don't you 3 just stand. Stacy is the one who will be 4 organizing and be the contact person working. And 5 the two people from the Office of Local Government 6 Services who will be working with you also, and 7 that's Sue Jacobucci who is the Director of Office 8 of Local Government Services and Marc Pfeiffer who 9 is the Deputy Director of the Office of Local 10 Government Services. 11 The first order of business is the 12 selection of a Chairperson. And I would like to 13 nominate John Fisher. 14 Do I hear a second? 15 MS. KENNY: Second. 16 COMMISSIONER DORIA: Are there any 17 other nominations? 18 Hearing none, could we ask the -- 19 MS. STERN: I would suggest a roll 20 call. 21 COMMISSIONER DORIA: Roll call, 22 Stacy. 23 MS. SPERA: Commissioner Joseph 24 Doria. 25 COMMISSIONER DORIA: Yes. 16 1 MS. SPERA: Treasurer David 2 Rousseau. 3 TREASURER ROUSSEAU: Yes. 4 MS. SPERA: John Fisher. 5 MR. FISHER: Yes. 6 MS. SPERA: Mayor Gary Passanante. 7 MAYOR PASSANANTE: Yes. 8 MS. SPERA: Steven Cozza. 9 MR. COZZA: Yes. 10 MS. SPERA: Jane Kenny. 11 MS. KENNY: Yes. 12 MS. SPERA: Marvin Reed. 13 MR. REED: Yes. 14 MS. SPERA: Robert Casey. 15 MR. CASEY: Yes. 16 COMMISSIONER DORIA: Congratulations. 17 We ask you to come forward. 18 At this point the legislation -- and 19 I'll just take one minute more, John. 20 At this point, the legislation calls 21 for us to appoint an executive director. Given 22 the fact that we're under a hiring freeze at the 23 State at this point, with the approval of the 24 Commission, we will use the staff from the Office 25 of Local Government Services and Stacy as the 17 1 secretary and move forward at this point with that 2 staff. However, I do believe that as we move 3 along, Mr. Chairman, we will have to move out and 4 work with some consultants probably from the 5 academic area who can help us, because I think we 6 have a lot of work to do and we will not be able 7 to do it just with the staff, as Jane so well 8 knows, a former Commissioner. They're a good 9 staff, but they don't have many people in this 10 office. They keep on going down. So if that is 11 agreeable? 12 CHAIRMAN FISHER: Fine. 13 COMMISSIONER DORIA: So then I'll 14 turn it other to you. 15 We have a presentation at this point 16 from the Office of Law and Government Service on 17 the duties of the Commission. Marc Pfeiffer, 18 Deputy Director, will make the presentation. 19 MR. PFEIFFER: Good morning. 20 Welcome and congratulations, and a little bit of 21 condolences. I'm going to pass out to you a 22 full-sized handout, but I'm going to just jump to 23 the bottom of Page 7. 24 The first part of it, basically, is 25 an outline of the law and the legislative intent. 18 1 Just take a few minutes -- start at the bottom of 2 Page 7, which talks about the responsibilities of 3 the Commission and what your charge is, which is 4 very specific in the law. Basically, it starts 5 that the Commission shall study and report on the 6 structure and functions of county municipal 7 government, including their local taxing 8 districts, their statutory basis, including the 9 fiscal relationship between local governments and 10 the appropriate allocation of service delivery 11 responsibilities from the standpoint of 12 efficiency. 13 That's a very broad yet specific 14 mandate of what you're going to do. 15 Now, in doing that, on the next page 16 you'll see that the Commission shall recommend 17 legislative changes which would encourage the more 18 efficient operation of local government. And 19 those changes may include structural and 20 administrative streamlining of county municipal 21 government functions, including but not limited to 22 the transfer of functions from one level of 23 government to another and the use or establishment 24 of regional service delivery entities. 25 Now, you also get to consider 19 1 optimal service levels. And the intent there is, 2 what levels of government are best suited or what 3 economies of scale, what levels should services be 4 delivered at to gain efficiency, ratios of 5 employees to populations served, cost structure 6 for service delivery and other best practices. 7 Now, the real challenge of that is 8 something that you're going to have to figure out 9 how to do. You're supposed to report your 10 findings two years after the enactment. The 11 enactment was last March, so that means you have 12 less than a year under the statute to do that. 13 MS. KENNY: No problem. 14 MR. PFEIFFER: Former Commissioner 15 Kenny's got this under control. 16 Now, once you make those 17 recommendations, once you do those things, then 18 based on the findings of optimal service levels, 19 develop criteria to serve as the basis for 20 recommending the consolidation of specific 21 municipalities, the merger of specific existing 22 autonomous agencies into the parent municipal or 23 county government. That's existing autonomous 24 agencies is synonymous for local authorities, fire 25 districts, those types of entities. Or the 20 1 sharing of services between municipalities or 2 between municipalities and other public entities. 3 And while you're doing this, recommendations for 4 sharing services may result from a study focusing 5 exclusively on the sharing of service or may 6 result from a study examining potential 7 consolidation. 8 Now, one of restrictions here is 9 municipalities to be considered for consolidation 10 shall be within the same county and shall also be 11 situated within the same legislative district. 12 That may produce some other little limitations on 13 how you look at things. 14 Now, we also want to keep in mind 15 that down the road we do have a new census taking 16 place in 2010, followed by a legislative 17 redistricting in 2012. 18 The law then goes on to talk about 19 criteria that governs the examination of 20 consolidation or sharing of services and the 21 things that you get to look at. Now, here, you 22 get to look at a consideration of geographic 23 factors, an analysis of the economic cost and 24 benefits of consolidation or sharing services, 25 including potential tax savings and reduction in 21 1 government cost through economies of scale, 2 measures to ensure that cost and benefits of 3 consolidation or service sharing are distributed 4 equitably across the entire community, and 5 measures to safeguard the interest of communities 6 in the municipalities for which consolidation is 7 recommended. And if there's any volunteers, any 8 municipalities that want to volunteer to come up 9 to be consolidated, you get to give them priority. 10 Once you do that, when you figure 11 all that out and decide the ones and you're going 12 to recommend consolidation, you become the 13 substitute for a joint municipal consolidation 14 study commission, and there's no voter approval 15 required to create the study commission. 16 Now, I should point out that as part 17 of the core legislation that created this, we did 18 what we can call consolidation reform, and a new 19 law called local option municipal consolidation 20 was created which provides a great deal of 21 flexibility of how consolidations can become 22 accomplished. And that provides a good deal of 23 flexibility to the local finance board who has the 24 final say about how consolidations can work. And 25 that's something that's brand-new and was just 22 1 starting to move forward with that now. We've 2 actually heard from three different groups of 3 municipalities already that want to talk about 4 that with us. So that's kind of exciting in its 5 own right. 6 But you get to serve as the study 7 commission, and there's a whole laundry list. I'm 8 not going to read all of this, but you basically 9 become that municipal -- that consolidation study 10 commission for those municipalities that you 11 choose. 12 Once you go through all that and 13 consolidation is still recommended, that list goes 14 to the State Legislature. And there's a time 15 frame for when that has to happen. The 16 Legislature has a limited time in which it has to 17 act to say yes or no, we think this is a good idea 18 or not. If the Legislature thinks it's a good 19 idea, and this would happen in the spring, really 20 between May 1st and July 1st, it would then go on 21 the ballot of those municipalities for final 22 approval by the voters. So there's a very precise 23 process that we have to follow in trying to figure 24 out how to make this work. 25 And that's basically it. 23 1 I'm sure we will a lot of discussion 2 about how to implement that and make that work. 3 And the Division on behalf the Director, we're 4 here to assist you in that effort. 5 COMMISSIONER DORIA: Why don't you 6 mention the three present municipalities or groups 7 of municipalities that are -- 8 MR. PFEIFFER: We have had inquiries 9 from several municipalities, Upper Township and 10 Corbin City down in Cape May in Atlantic Counties; 11 three communities up in Sussex County, Sussex 12 Borough, Wantage Township, and Montague Township. 13 And we've had a nibbling on -- I'm not sure how 14 official it is at this point -- from a pair of 15 communities in Morris County. So it's an 16 interesting time and the discussions in those 17 cases will continue. 18 Any questions? 19 Thank you very much. 20 COMMISSIONER DORIA: I just want 21 introduce Deputy Commissioner Chuck Richman who 22 was hiding behind the stenographer. 23 I'll turn it over to you, Mr. 24 Chairman. 25 CHAIRMAN FISHER: Thank you. 24 1 First order of business, it's Jack. 2 John H., the third, was to separate all that Irish 3 Fisher clan from the others. There was a senior, 4 a junior, and also fourth. But it's Jack; thank 5 you. 6 Very briefly, I'm both honored and 7 humbled by your confidence and the Governor's 8 confidence and your confidence by the vote to 9 Chair this. That fleeting Andy Warhol moment of 10 glory passed. Let me tell you more importantly 11 that I'm extremely enthusiastic about this team 12 and the type of challenge that we have in front of 13 us. We have wonderfully talented people, 14 outspoken people, seasoned veterans in all levels 15 of government. And I look forward to working with 16 you, because truly it's a cooperative effort and 17 certainly not your run-of-the-mill commission or 18 panel of state government. 19 I know that the Governor's Office 20 has asked us for resumes for each of us. And I, 21 as soon as possible, would ask that we distribute 22 everyone's resume to the others so you have a 23 little bit better background on the service of 24 each of the members so far in their respective 25 careers. 25 1 COMMISSIONER DORIA: I suggest you 2 could get them to my office, to Stacy, who will 3 make sure everybody gets a copy. And we'll make 4 sure the Governor's Office gets a copy also. So 5 if you can send it to Stacy Spera, who is a 6 special assistant in my office, she'll make sure 7 we take care of that. 8 CHAIRMAN FISHER: I did not enter 9 the room knowing that I was going to be Chair, I 10 will tell you that. And so I'm not necessarily 11 prepared for all of the order of business other 12 than following the agenda. But at this moment, 13 let me stop and ask if there's any conversation or 14 points that any of the members would like to make 15 about the opportunity to serve here. 16 Anytime you can get Gary quiet, it's 17 a success. 18 MS. KENNY: Could I ask a question 19 maybe of the staff? 20 CHAIRMAN FISHER: Sure. 21 MS. KENNY: Why do you think that 22 there are municipalities that are now interested 23 maybe in embarking on this? What are your 24 thoughts on that? 25 MR. PFEIFFER: I think it's part the 26 1 tenor of the times, the Governor's comments that 2 he's made, the consideration of the aid cut. But 3 I think overarching that is what came out special 4 legislative session which resulted in this, in the 5 Commission being form. There is a sense among 6 some municipalities that, better we act in advance 7 of being told what to do. We heard that expressed 8 by some municipal officials. So I think those 9 folks are kind of preemptively trying to do it to 10 get out there first. They figure if there's going 11 to be any state aid available for that, they want 12 to get their hands on it before it goes away. 13 MS. KENNY: I think you answered my 14 question. That last sentence probably answered 15 it. Thank you, Marc. 16 MR. REED: Let me say, I'm here on 17 this Commission, I think, because I've had more 18 experience going through consolidation referendums 19 than anybody else. And Princeton has been a 20 glutton for punishment. But more recently, the 21 local people have had several meetings, and they 22 invited Marc to come. And Marc basically used 23 this PowerPoint to explain the process, and 24 they're very interested in local government and 25 those kinds of issues. But I was amazed at the 27 1 response that he got, because I was convinced that 2 Princeton would never go there again. But for 3 some reason or other, they now say, we better look 4 at this. I think what makes the difference, 5 though, is the fact that the legislation that was 6 adopted creates a much more supportive 7 environment. And the fact that we might just be 8 able to come up with an agreement beforehand as to 9 what a new consolidated government would actually 10 be like and how it would deliver services, so that 11 it's like bringing two corporations together and 12 you now how it's going to turn out, may make the 13 difference. Meanwhile, I'll just keep them 14 peacefully bobbing along. But I think that 15 approach, Marc, was -- they're very interested in 16 looking at it again. So we'll see what happens. 17 CHAIRMAN FISHER: Gary. 18 MAYOR PASSANANTE: I don't want to 19 disappoint you. 20 CHAIRMAN FISHER: You never would. 21 MAYOR PASSANANTE: I just want to 22 bring out two points. First, I would hope as a 23 Commission here that we go in very open-minded as 24 to trying to find out what the real solutions to 25 the problem are and not automatically assume 28 1 bigger is better, because in some cases it may not 2 be. So we need to take a look at on a 3 case-by-case basis what makes more sense. Because 4 in the end, the idea here is to provide more 5 efficient services at less cost. 6 The second comment would be that as 7 a leader in my municipality, I can tell you that 8 when we look at things like this in the shared 9 services atmosphere -- and we've all been doing 10 shared services for many, many years -- study 11 monies are less valuable than implementation 12 monies. Unless we find a way to be able to 13 provide the solutions through funding to make 14 these things happened, I'm not sure we're going to 15 have much success. That's the real hurdle in 16 getting these shared services and/or 17 consolidations effective is you've got to make 18 that first jump and how do you do that. There 19 needs to be some way to provide the funding 20 necessary to be able to deal that first go at it. 21 Or else each municipality is going to be reluctant 22 to want to do that. We can't afford to take on 23 any more costs, so... 24 MR. CASEY: Picking up on that, I 25 mean, part of the other issue is -- and I've done 29 1 a number of shared service studies. I've tried a 2 couple. Once I tried even a regional police 3 department back in the '70s. If in fact, the 4 whole concentration is simply on short-term 5 economic cost benefit analysis, it's not going to 6 work. Unless somehow we can instill in people 7 that in the municipalities that it's necessary to 8 look at a rational functional realignment of 9 government in terms of looking at the big picture, 10 in terms of emphasizing any cost projections, 11 anything else, you've got to be dealing with five 12 years out. Because if you start getting into 13 short-term, it's not going to work. You're going 14 to find people saying, "Well, okay, you saved me 4 15 cents in my tax dollar. Well, let's see, what 16 does that equate to my house of $300,000? That's 17 $120 a year. It ain't worth it." 18 So I think we have to really look at 19 the issue in terms of reanalyzing governmental 20 structure and governmental functioning in a more 21 rational basis. Some of the work that the study 22 commission did -- I was a member of them in the 23 '70s and '80s, and, you know, you never really 24 went forward. But I think we need to really found 25 ourselves on that type of analysis. And then once 30 1 we reassign -- not reassign. Once we've indicated 2 as even the law says, optimal ways to accomplish 3 certain functions, then the issue of how you 4 organize those at a local level fits. But just to 5 say you're going to merge two together, it still 6 doesn't address the issue is maybe we shouldn't be 7 merging -- for instance, I'll just make one up. 8 Maybe we shouldn't be looking at merging health 9 departments at a local level. That may be 10 something in an issue. So I think you almost have 11 to preface that with an overview as to where 12 should we be going. Because on a pure cost 13 benefit analysis, unless you can look at 5 to 10 14 years, it ain't gonna work. That seems to be the 15 history of everything's that happened thus far, 16 where you have a favorable study like you've done 17 a couple in Princeton. It wasn't significant 18 enough to raise to the level of implementation. 19 MR. REED: And it wasn't the money 20 that they were concerned about. 21 MR. CASEY: That's correct. That's 22 the other issue. It's not necessarily the money. 23 You've got to get away from the money and get us 24 to bigger issue as to continuity community and 25 long-term where we want to be in five years, ten 31 1 years. 2 CHAIRMAN FISHER: All excellent 3 points. 4 Anyone else? 5 Let me just follow along with that. 6 I was thinking of a conversation Gary and I had 7 before the meeting started about -- and all of you 8 have touched on it in a different way. The 9 government, when we're finished, will be different 10 and hopefully it will -- not hopefully, but it 11 will be effective. And I didn't even write down 12 the cost aspect at this particular point. Having 13 gone through an immense amount of this Gloucester 14 County, you can't predict those immediate savings 15 sometimes, and that's not what it was all about. 16 It's the long-term, for sure. So if we 17 regionalize an emergency response faction of 18 county government, working with the 19 municipalities, it has a long lead-in period. 20 Even our 911, to get all of the communities, has 21 taken over 15 years. But it has been a better way 22 to provide that service. It's been more 23 effective, and it's been more appreciated by the 24 public. They see and feel the service that they 25 get. 32 1 So building on all the points that 2 have been made so far and others that will come, 3 again, I'm pleased with the process that brought 4 this talent to this Commission. 5 I would suggest that we're going to 6 be very busy in the beginning. Those of you that 7 have five-year terms may enjoy seeing it slow down 8 later on. But I think in the beginning we're 9 going to have to meet at least a couple times a 10 month. There's so much needed in getting us up to 11 speed with other work that has been ongoing, even 12 though it's been a slow process perhaps to get 13 this Commission appointed. The work has still 14 been undertaken by state government. And so we 15 need that transference of information and begin to 16 work on this. And I don't know if we're prepared 17 to do that this morning. But if we're not, it has 18 to be very quickly thereafter, to seize upon 19 whether it's a day of the week or whether we leave 20 it to your complicated schedules and make it work. 21 But full participation is going to also be 22 extremely important because the opinions around 23 this table are varied and we need each of those 24 inputs as we move forward. 25 Commissioner, I don't know if you 33 1 had any thoughts on helping us or have your staff 2 help us with that scheduling. 3 COMMISSIONER DORIA: Well, 4 obviously, we'll -- maybe the best thing -- again, 5 I'll leave it up to each of you -- would be to 6 give a schedule or a day that's good, work out, 7 number one, a day that would be the best day and 8 then try to then work a meeting schedule. And 9 you're suggesting maybe twice a month? 10 CHAIRMAN FISHER: Yes, in the 11 beginning. 12 COMMISSIONER DORIA: So then twice a 13 month get a schedule to do that. We will meet 14 here. We'll arrange parking if you need parking. 15 That will be one thing we'll take care of. We'll 16 get that arranged for you. We'll do whatever we 17 have to to accommodate you. So first thing would 18 be if you could get an agreement on a day. And 19 then from there, we'll try to then schedule it on 20 a continuing basis. 21 CHAIRMAN FISHER: And if not at this 22 moment, when you get back, look at your calendars. 23 E-mail us as quickly you can. 24 COMMISSIONER DORIA: What's best 25 e-mail for you, Stacy? 34 1 MS. SPERA: Sspera@dca.state.nj.us. 2 MS. JACOBUCCI: Commissioner, we've 3 been e-mailing the committee members, so we will 4 make sure they have it. And what the Chair said 5 about the bios as well, if you can e-mail the bios 6 to Stacy, that would be great. We also have an 7 e-mail address that's being set up for the LUARCC 8 Commission. 9 COMMISSIONER DORIA: We're going to 10 have a website also. So we're doing that right 11 now. We're setting up a separate website. We'll 12 have a separate e-mail address. That's all being 13 done right now. That will make things much easier 14 to get information to you and back and forth. 15 That's being all set up at the present time. 16 MR. CASEY: I suggest that we e-mail 17 what days -- only the days we can't make it. I 18 mean, I have a standing routine. I can't make the 19 third Monday of every month. That's really what 20 you need to know, and then you can work in the 21 void. So if there are drop-dead dates that you 22 cannot make, and then rest will try to work around 23 you. You'll never get anybody's schedule to a 24 agree anyway, so at least we'll find out exactly. 25 MR. FISHER: And let me ask another 35 1 question on travel time to Trenton. I chair 2 another authority, and we had a couple 3 participants in Bergen County. And so we 4 shifted -- we're either in ahead of the traffic in 5 Trenton or behind the traffic in Trenton. I don't 6 know if that makes a difference to any of the 7 participants here, whether 9:30 becomes a better 8 time to begin the meeting. But I'm totally open 9 to any of that. My travel isn't that far. I 10 don't know about the rest. 11 Does time make a difference to 12 anyone, or afternoons as opposed to mornings? 13 MR. CASEY: I would prefer to keep 14 it in the morning, because afternoons interfere if 15 you have night meetings. 16 MR. COZZA: I prefer morning 17 meetings. 18 CHAIRMAN FISHER: Is 9:30 better so 19 at least you don't fight the traffic? 20 MEMBERS: Yes. 21 MR. FISHER: Good. 22 Any other discussion points? 23 I don't think we have anything else 24 to cover this morning. 25 COMMISSIONER DORIA: Nothing really 36 1 other than there's materials here. One of the 2 things we will do at the next meeting is to try to 3 put together additional materials and try to put 4 together some of the questions that we should deal 5 with immediately. So, again, if you have any 6 questions, just e-mail them again to Stacy. 7 MR. CASEY: There was some excellent 8 material given to the legislative commission who 9 created this, one of the reports. 10 TREASURER ROUSSEAU: I was going to 11 suggest we get final report and we can get the 12 transcript. Every meeting was transcribed. 13 MR. PFEIFFER: We can probably get 14 that stuff, yes. 15 MR. CASEY: There's a lot of very 16 good comments. 17 COMMISSIONER DORIA: The 18 Consolidation Committee. We will get the report 19 of the Consolidation Committee. 20 MR. CASEY: It was online. The 21 report per se is online on the site. The issue is 22 some of the reports that were submitted should and 23 may all be there as well. 24 TREASURER ROUSSEAU: It should be 25 all there. 37 1 COMMISSIONER DORIA: They all were 2 supposed to be. I don't know -- is it still 3 online? 4 TREASURER ROUSSEAU: We can check. 5 It should be at least archived. 6 COMMISSIONER DORIA: We can find it 7 and put it on our website. 8 TREASURER ROUSSEAU: We can probably 9 can get a way to link from ours to theirs. 10 COMMISSIONER DORIA: If their stuff 11 is still up. I don't know if it's still up. 12 MR. PFEIFFER: The OLS information 13 is available. It's not obvious, but we actually 14 have connections with OLS. We will be able to get 15 you the links to those documents and you can be 16 able to look at those online. It would be easier 17 that way, I think. 18 COMMISSIONER DORIA: Okay. 19 MR. REED: We don't have to decide 20 it right away or that fast, but sooner or later I 21 think the involvement of the academic community 22 with this whole effort is important and that we 23 should start thinking how we're going to launch 24 that, how we're going to bring them together, some 25 kind of symposium so that whatever resources -- if 38 1 they're looking at tasks and problems to do 2 research on, that we identify the kinds of things 3 that we're looking at so that they become adjunct 4 to what is happening here and that they're not 5 going off on different tangents or at 6 cross-purposes of what we're tying to do. I 7 suspect that between Princeton, Rutgers, Seton 8 Hall, Fairleigh Dickinson, Kean, Duke, that all of 9 those would have some kind of recourses that 10 they'd be applying to this question. And if we 11 can stimulate that -- 12 CHAIRMAN FISHER: And I suspect that 13 will be discussion for our first meeting. 14 MR. REED: For our first meeting. 15 COMMISSIONER DORIA: We'll set up -- 16 there's a center in Rutgers Newark that deals with 17 some of this. Henry Coleman at Rutgers in New 18 Brunswick has done a lot. We'll look. Monmouth 19 University's done some stuff. So we'll try to put 20 together, again, for the next meeting, some of 21 that information. 22 Eventually, I would suspect, Mr. 23 Chairman, we will have to contract with some of 24 them to do some of the work for us, because 25 otherwise we will not be able to get it done. 39 1 CHAIRMAN FISHER: Gary. 2 MAYOR PASSANANTE: Given the 3 accelerated schedule that we're facing -- in fact, 4 March 9, '09, is the deadline that we have to 5 meet -- are you going to put together a schedule 6 of -- at least a target schedule for us so that we 7 know how much time we can spend on given areas of 8 this study so we can make that deadline? 9 CHAIRMAN FISHER: Yes. And I think 10 that's the Commissioner was referring to earlier 11 where we'll have some prioritized tasks at the 12 very beginning and projected out as to the 13 different milestones we will hit. 14 Anyone else? 15 MR. COZZA: Just out of curiosity, 16 why were school districts exempt from this study? 17 TREASURER ROUSSEAU: They were set 18 in a separate statute. Actually, they were 19 actually more distinctly -- the county 20 superintendent, the executive county 21 superintendent, they were actually directed that 22 within one year, which should be about now, they 23 have to find a plan -- not talk about but it, but 24 find a plan to eliminate all the school districts 25 who don't have buildings; so the, quote, 30 40 1 non-operating school districts. Then they had 2 three years -- they were directed for three years 3 to come up with a plan in each county to eliminate 4 all non K through 12 districts and then that would 5 then go to the voters. So the executive county 6 superintendant is, in essence, doing the same 7 function that we're doing. I don't think -- Marc, 8 correct me if I'm wrong. Are we limited in 9 talking about shared services within local 10 governments or are we also allowed to look at 11 shared services within school districts and 12 municipalities? 13 MR. PFEIFFER: I don't think it's 14 precise in the law, but I think you certainly 15 could go there on the shared service side, 16 absolutely. 17 COMMISSIONER DORIA: Shared service, 18 we can definitely look at. 19 TREASURER ROUSSEAU: Building 20 maintenance, things like that. 21 COMMISSIONER DORIA: We can also 22 look at, I think, Mr. Chairman, the authorities. 23 TREASURER ROUSSEAU: And fire 24 districts. 25 COMMISSIONER DORIA: Fire districts. 41 1 MS. JACOBUCCI: Chair, one of the 2 other parts of the statute besides choosing a 3 chairperson is you shall select a secretary who 4 need not be among your members, as Commissioner 5 Doria said. We have right now Stacy Spera 6 supporting, but we need an official appointment, 7 if you want to do that at this point. That's just 8 one of the other items under the statute that you 9 have to do, is your organization. 10 CHAIRMAN FISHER: Thank you. 11 COMMISSIONER DORIA: You want to 12 specially designate Stacy? 13 MS. STERN: Mr. Chair, I would 14 suggest that you take two roll call votes: One on 15 a motion to invoke the services of the Department 16 of Community Affairs to provide executive director 17 services; and the other, your selection of Stacy 18 Spera as your secretary. And do it separately, I 19 would suggest, doing roll call votes. 20 CHAIRMAN FISHER: Thank you. 21 Do I hear a motion? 22 This is the Commissioner's office 23 serving as executive director. 24 MS. STERN: Perhaps one of the 25 members could actually articulate that in a motion 42 1 for you. 2 MS. KENNY: I move that the Local 3 Government Services serve as our staff for this 4 Commission. 5 CHAIRMAN FISHER: Is there a second? 6 TREASURER ROUSSEAU: Second. 7 CHAIRMAN FISHER: Moved and 8 seconded. 9 Any question? 10 Roll call. 11 MS. SPERA: Mr. Fisher. 12 CHAIRMAN FISHER: Yes. 13 MS. SPERA: Commissioner Doria. 14 COMMISSIONER DORIA: Yes. 15 MS. SPERA: Treasurer Rousseau. 16 TREASURER ROUSSEAU: Yes. 17 MS. SPERA: Mayor Passanante. 18 MAYOR PASSANANTE: Yes. 19 MS. SPERA: Mr. Cozza. 20 MR. COZZA: Yes. 21 MS. SPERA: Ms. Kenny. 22 MS. KENNY: Yes. 23 MS. SPERA: Mr. Reed. 24 MR. REED: Yes. 25 MS. SPERA: Mr. Casey. 43 1 MR. CASEY: Yes. 2 CHAIRMAN FISHER: We need a second 3 motion. 4 MS. STERN: The second motion would 5 be to select -- I can't make the motion, but if a 6 member would make it, it would for the selection 7 of Stacy Spera to serve as the secretary. 8 MR. CASEY: So moved. 9 MAYOR PASSANANTE: Second. 10 MR. FISHER: Thank you. Moved and 11 seconded. 12 Is there any question? 13 Roll call. 14 MS. SPERA: Mr. Fisher. 15 CHAIRMAN FISHER: Yes. 16 MS. SPERA: Mr. Doria. 17 COMMISSIONER DORIA: Yes. 18 MS. SPERA: Treasurer Rousseau. 19 TREASURER ROUSSEAU: Yes. 20 MS. SPERA: Mayor Passanante. 21 MAYOR PASSANANTE: Yes. 22 MS. SPERA: Mr. Cozza. 23 MR. COZZA: Yes. 24 MS. SPERA: Ms. Kenny. 25 MS. KENNY: Yes. 44 1 MS. SPERA: Mr. Reed. 2 MR. REED: Yes. 3 MS. SPERA: Mr. Casey. 4 MR. CASEY: Yes. 5 CHAIRMAN FISHER: I think that 6 addresses the business that needed to be 7 accomplished this morning unless there's any other 8 thoughts of the part of the Commission members. 9 I look forward to our next meeting 10 in fairly short order and a very busy schedule. 11 And again, I congratulate all of you for what 12 you've done thus far and what you're going to do 13 on this Commission moving forward. I think it is 14 an exciting opportunity. I look forward to 15 working with all of you. 16 Does anyone have any other thoughts 17 or comments? 18 If not, a motion to adjourn. 19 COMMISSIONER DORIA: So moved. 20 MS. KENNY: Second. 21 CHAIRMAN FISHER: Moved and 22 seconded. 23 All those in favor? 24 MEMBERS: Aye. 25 CHAIRMAN FISHER: Opposed? 45 1 We are adjourned. Thank you. 2 - - - 3 (Meeting adjourned at 10:00 a.m.) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 46 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 I, Lisa C. Bradley, a Certified 4 Court Reporter and Notary Public of the State of 5 New Jersey, do hereby certify that the foregoing 6 is a true and accurate transcript of the testimony 7 as taken stenographically by and before me at the 8 time, place and on the date hereinbefore set 9 forth, to the best of my ability. 10 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am 11 neither a relative nor employee nor attorney nor 12 counsel of any of the parties to this action, and 13 that I am neither a relative nor employee of such 14 attorney or counsel, and that I am not financially 15 interested in the action. 16 17 18 __________________________ 19 LISA C. BRADLEY, CCR, RPR 20 CCR NO. 30XI00228700 21 22 DATED: THURSDAY, APRIL 10, 2008 23 24 25