1 1 STATE OF NEW JERSEY 2 DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNITY AFFAIRS 3 STATE PLANNING COMMISSION 4 5 In the matter of: : 6 : 7 STATE PLANNING COMMISSION : 8 : 9 10 11 Thomas Edison College 12 101 West State Street 13 Trenton, NJ 08618 14 Monday, September 22, 2003 15 Commencing 9:40 a.m. to 11:27 a.m 16 17 18 19 20 GUY J. RENZI & ASSOCIATES 21 824 West State Street 22 Trenton, New Jersey 08618 23 609-989-9199 or 800-368-7652 (TOLL FREE) 24 (609) 392-7978 (FAX) 25 http://www.renziassociates.com 2 1 H E L D B E F O R E: 2 3 LAUREN MOORE, Commerce 4 PETER LAZAROPOULOS, Public Member 5 DANIEL LEVINE, Treasury 6 MARILYN LENNON, Public Member 7 CURTIS FISHER, Governor's Office 8 MARGE DELLA VECCHIA, Community Affairs 9 ROBIN MURRAY, Office of Smart Growth 10 MICHELE BYERS, Public Member 11 JOHN ESKILSON, Municipal Office 12 JOANNA DUNN SAMSON, Environmental Protection 13 EDWARD MCKENNA, Public Member 14 BRENT BARNES, Transportation 15 DAVID FISHER, Public Member 16 MONIQUE PURCELL, Agriculture 17 PAT STERN, DAG 18 WENDY MCVICKER, Office of Smart Growth 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 A G E N D A 2 3 PAGE 4 CALL TO ORDER 4 5 OPEN PUBLIC MEETINGS ACT 4 6 ROLL CALL 4 7 APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES 6 8 CHAIRMAN'S COMMENTS 8 9 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR'S REPORT 10 10 COMMITTEE REPORTS 17 11 PRESENTATION 12 Bill Harrison 18 13 Rich Roberts 26 14 PUBLIC COMMENTS 58 15 COMMISSIONER REPORTS 76 16 PUBLIC COMMENTS 90 17 ADJOURNMENT 90 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 1 MS. BYERS: Good morning. I'd like 2 to call the meeting to order, and ask that the 3 Public Meetings Act be read for the record, 4 please. 5 MS. STERN: Pursuant to the Open 6 Meeting Act, notice of the time place and date of 7 this meeting has been provided to the secretary 8 of state, and has been published in the Asbury 9 Park Press, Camden Courier Post, The Bergen 10 Record, The Home News, The Hunterdon Review, the 11 New York Star Ledger, New York Times and Trenton 12 Times. 13 MS. BYERS: Thank you. I'd also 14 like to move on to the roll call, please. 15 MS. MCVICKER: Michelle Byers? 16 MS. BYERS: Yes. 17 MS. MCVICKER: Bradley Campbell? 18 John Eskilson? 19 MR. ESKILSON: Here. 20 MS. MCVICKER: Curtis Fisher? 21 MR. FISHER: Here. 22 MS. MCVICKER: David Fisher? 23 MR. FISHER: Here. 24 MS. MCVICKER: Charles Kuperus? 25 MS. PURCELL: Monique Purcell for 5 1 Charles Kuperus. 2 MS. MCVICKER: Peter Lazaropoulos? 3 Marilyn Lennon? 4 MS. LENNON: Here. 5 MS. MCVICKER: John Lettiere? 6 MR. BARNES: Brent Barnes for John 7 Lettiere. 8 MS. MCVICKER: Susan Bass-Levin? 9 MS. DELLA VECCHIA: Marge Della 10 Vecchia for Commissioner Levin. 11 MS. MCVICKER: John McCormac? 12 MR. LEVINE: Dan Levine for John 13 McCormac. 14 MS. MCVICKER: Edward McKenna? 15 MR. MCKENNA: Here. 16 MS. MCVICKER: Gary Paparozzi? 17 Donna Pearson? George Pruitt? William Watley? 18 Timothy Touhey? 19 MS. BYERS: Thanks. I assume we 20 have a quorum? 21 MS. MCVICKER: Yes. 22 MS. BYERS: Just so that you all 23 know, Tim Touhey could not be here today. He 24 sends his apologies, and I'm standing in for him. 25 We have not a very, very big agenda this morning, 6 1 so we hope we can move it along fairly quickly 2 and get to our presentation. We do have some 3 housekeeping to attend to. We have two sets of 4 minutes. One for February 19, 2003, and one for 5 July 16, 2003, and we would like to have those 6 minutes approved. Can we do those all at once, 7 or do we need to do separate resolutions for each 8 one? 9 MS. STERN: I would say you can do 10 them at once. 11 MS. PURCELL: Could I make a 12 recommendation? With the transcripts now, I 13 think there is a need for a staff person to 14 review them because when you read them closely, 15 there are some little things with language and so 16 forth that are not correct; and I don't want to 17 go through all of that, but maybe if we're going 18 to have a transcribed summary for our minutes, 19 could we have a staff person make sure the 20 terminology and things are correct. 21 MS. BYERS: Thanks. I assume we're 22 going to be doing transcripts of all of our 23 meeting minutes for the duration? Is that -- 24 MS. MURRAY: Yes. 25 MR. ESKILSON: There is one 7 1 correction I'd like to see made on the 2 transcript. It's on page 20, I guess. It's Mr. 3 Peru from Vernon. It's actually Carew, 4 C-A-R-E-W. I think that should be corrected. I 5 believe it's 20. Yeah, 20, parentheses, pages 74 6 to 77, the lower right-hand quadrant there right 7 at the top. It should be Carew, C-A-R-E-W. 8 MS. BYERS: I'd also like to thank 9 the stenographers who are helping with these 10 meetings because it can get quite long and dense, 11 and many, many obscure terms that we all throw 12 around on the state plan, so I'd like to move 13 onto resolution to approve the meeting minutes of 14 both the February and July State Planning 15 Commission. Is there a motion? 16 MR. MCKENNA: So moved. 17 MS. BYERS: Second? 18 MR. ESKILSON: Second. 19 MS. BYERS: All in favor? 20 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. Roll call. 21 MS. MCVICKER: Michelle Byers? 22 MS. BYERS: Yes. 23 MS. MCVICKER: Joanna Samson? 24 MS. SAMSON: Yes. 25 MS. MCVICKER: John Eskilson? 8 1 MR. ESKILSON: Yes. 2 MS. MCVICKER: Curtis Fisher? 3 MR. FISHER: Yes. 4 MS. MCVICKER: David Fisher? 5 MR. FISHER: Yes. 6 MS. MCVICKER: Monique Purcell? 7 MS. PURCELL: Yes. 8 MS. MCVICKER: Marilyn Lennon? 9 MS. LENNON: Yes. 10 MS. MCVICKER: Brent Barnes? 11 MR. BARNES: Yes. 12 MS. MCVICKER: Marge Della Vecchia? 13 MS. DELLA VECCHIA: Yes. 14 MS. MCVICKER: Daniel Levine? 15 MR. LEVINE: Yes. 16 MS. MCVICKER: Edward McKenna? 17 MR. MCKENNA: Yes. 18 MS. BYERS: Thank you. I have very 19 short comments today, and basically what I'd like 20 to say is I do see the State Planning Commission, 21 and the state plan at the brink of potential 22 success. We have so many things that have been 23 coming together for the last, you know, few years 24 even in terms of continuum over the last five to 25 ten years in terms of plan endorsement, in terms 9 1 of agency plans that are coming together, in 2 terms of mapping and data that are coming 3 together. 4 And now that we're going out to 5 cross acceptance, we have much more information 6 that we've had in the past, much more agency buy 7 into the state plan than we've ever had; so I can 8 see how things can really happen here, and I'm 9 somewhat optimistic, although it's not easy, and 10 to get actual consistency with the state plan for 11 plan endorsement is not going to be easy. 12 So there is going to be a lot of, 13 you know, controversy and discussion over what 14 that means; and one thing I'd just like to urge 15 the commission and the staff is to be as vigilant 16 and as strong as we possibly can on being clear 17 as to what we mean by consistency with the state 18 plan and how we use the plan endorsement process 19 to get there. 20 You know, every time we're a little 21 bit mushy about it, we get something less than 22 what I think we'd all like to see as an outcome, 23 so that's my one concern is that we really work 24 hard to bring some clarity, some clear standards, 25 some clear guidelines for towns so they know what 10 1 it is they're shooting for as we go through the 2 process. 3 And they know what they're going to 4 get in terms of incentives, to try to make -- you 5 know, everybody wants to use this word 6 transparency. Bring some clarity and 7 transparency to the process, and that's what I'm 8 going to be pushing for as the chair of the Plan 9 Implementation Committee, and I think that coming 10 in, the State Plan is going to depend on that, so 11 that's all I have for this morning. Robin. 12 MS. MURRAY: Good morning. I'm 13 obviously sitting in here for Adam today. 14 Pleasure to be here. Couple of housekeeping 15 items. The PIC meeting that had been scheduled 16 for October 1st has been canceled, and the State 17 Planning Commission next meeting is October 15th. 18 It's rushing up on us. Because of scheduling, 19 they came a little closer than they might have 20 otherwise. 21 Two smart future grants have been 22 awarded since we were last here. August 22nd 23 Perth Amboy received 125,000 for various economic 24 and planning initiatives that are going on in 25 support of their redevelopment, and last week, 11 1 Commissioner Bass-Levin presented Passaic County 2 with 265,000 for its strategic revitalization 3 plan. 4 That included funds for Patterson, 5 Prospect Park Borough, Little Falls Township, and 6 Clifton City, so we're excited to see that go 7 forward. Adam Zellner at the last meeting 8 discussed the extension for the pending centers. 9 This allows municipalities with pending petitions 10 a one year extension. 11 Paul Drake, manager of the area 12 planners has been reviewing the existing 13 petitions, and has prepared a status report which 14 he's going to come up and speak on, and we also 15 held a day long meeting with the Sussex County 16 pending center designations and Paul will report 17 on that, and talk about the future actions we're 18 going to be taking. I think we're well on our 19 way here. 20 MR. DRAKE: Thank you, Commission. 21 I'll be brief. I realize we're working on a 22 schedule here. What we're trying to do as Robin 23 indicated is to go through all the files that are 24 existing and make a final determination once and 25 for all on what is the actual status of some of 12 1 the pending centers. 2 As you're well aware, there was 3 additional year on the center designations that 4 extended the majority of these files. However, 5 we are going through and realizing that a 6 significant amount of them have actually been 7 withdrawn and either through our own action or 8 through action of the town, we're just going 9 through and sending acknowledgment letters that 10 they have been withdrawn, so that takes them off 11 the table. 12 We're also going through files where 13 we've asked for additional information, and 14 historically it may not have been submitted. 15 We're looking at those files to see if there is a 16 legitimate claim to see if we have the 17 information. If we never received information, 18 do we cancel those files because there has been a 19 significant amount of time where we haven't 20 received this information. 21 We're making some phone calls, 22 talking to some folks. We're also looking at 23 what are the centers that are in fact still in 24 the pipe line, and it is still only about a 25 handful. Roughly, 15 was the number that we were 13 1 sort of going around with, but now it is probably 2 less than that; but as I said, many times every 3 center has its own story, so the actual number is 4 still, you know, in that 15 range but we're 5 working to get that down. 6 What we anticipate we should be able 7 to do is when you look at the forthcoming agendas 8 for the next several meetings of the PIC and SPC, 9 we are reaching out to the towns to see and 10 encourage many of them, a good percentage of 11 them, to move to plan endorsement. We actually 12 have received acknowledgments, and at least 13 verbal acknowledgments from several towns that 14 they do intend to move to plan endorsement. 15 But then should the ones that are 16 still valid centers decide they want to proceed 17 still along with the center designation versus 18 plan endorsement, we should be, by next month, be 19 able to at least present an agenda for the coming 20 months of where those centers would be in that 21 process. We also had a very successful meeting 22 I'd like to report with Sussex County. 23 There was an interagency group, very 24 successful meeting. Senator Littell attended the 25 entire meeting which certainly his insights were 14 1 very useful, and I think we made substantial 2 progress with many of the centers in Sussex 3 County in discussing what the issues are. 4 We had an agency representative from 5 DOT, DEP, Department of Agriculture and DCA all 6 speaking about what they see their concerns are 7 with hopes and expectations. Also, with the 8 county there as well that, we would be 9 encouraging many of them to look at the benefits 10 of plan endorsement and move in that direction. 11 I think there is at least some 12 movement in there where we're still finalizing 13 those details, and then really just in 14 conclusion, we are in the process now of sending 15 out file letters to all the designated centers in 16 towns that have been in fact designated. 17 Historically, I think as of last month or in 18 July, we had 100 designated centers. 19 Looking back at the files, you'll 20 find there are towns that our communication with 21 them hasn't been on track so we're sending up 22 letters through each of the regional assignments 23 of area planners, and I figure in a few months we 24 should have covered all the centers with at least 25 a letter. 15 1 We didn't want to do it all at once 2 because we didn't want to be bombarded with 3 replies, but we have a strategy that each planner 4 will send out three letters. That equals 15 5 letters. In over a two or three month period, we 6 should be able to cover all of the centers, and 7 that gives ample time to respond when towns call 8 us back, so that's our plan there. 9 But as far as where we are, we are 10 certainly looking to widdle down this list, as 11 best we can the list that is out there, and be 12 able to report and continue to report that most 13 of them are moving to plan endorsement. Are 14 there any questions? 15 MR. CURTIS: Paul, in the letters 16 that you're sending out to the existing 17 designated centers, what are you asking for in 18 terms of progress, how well they've achieved 19 compliance with the PIA? 20 MR. DRAKE: Yes. First of all, 21 we're saying, you know, very much "how are you 22 doing" type introductory sentence, and then the 23 last part of the letter does talk about that the 24 rules require biannual reports, but I think we're 25 more -- we'd like to be able to say, you know, we 16 1 haven't talked to you in a while. 2 We'd like to hear how things are 3 going. Is there a way we could provide you with 4 assistance, be it technical? What have been the 5 issues that you've encountered as a center? Is 6 there things that we could help you with? You 7 know, we didn't get into very specific details as 8 to what grants you've applied for, but we'd like 9 to know as we get a call back, we'd like to be 10 able to track what some of those things that came 11 forward, if a town were applying for grants and 12 weren't getting them for one reason or another, 13 how can we help them maybe improve their 14 application package. 15 So it's at least, initially, it's 16 more of a "we haven't talked to you in awhile," 17 here is a letter, we'd like you to call us and 18 either have a phone conversation, or we'd like to 19 do a site visit, maybe come out to meet with you 20 and go in that direction. 21 MR. FISHER: Good. It will be 22 interesting to see the results of that 23 monitoring. 24 MS. BYERS: Anything else, Robin? 25 MS. MURRAY: No. 17 1 MR. BARNES: Madam Chairperson? 2 MS. BYERS: Yes. 3 MR. BARNES: Before we move on, I 4 had a question. I didn't quite hear what 5 happened to the October 15th planning commission 6 meeting. Is that on? 7 MS. MURRAY: It is on. Because it 8 comes up so quickly, I wanted to be sure that 9 people were aware of it. 10 MR. BARNES: Thank you. 11 MS. BYERS: Moving on to committee 12 reports, I can only say as the chair, the 13 presentation that we had seen at a meeting a few 14 weeks ago. We were briefed, very thoroughly by 15 both Bill and Paul and the staff with regard to 16 the proposed cross acceptance process and where 17 we are with plan endorsement; and as I said, we 18 have a lot of work ahead of us. 19 The committee is waiting to hear 20 from staff, as you heard from Paul, as to the 21 exact progress of the various applications and 22 the meetings we need, what our meeting dates will 23 be so we can handle the work load; but we sort of 24 have been waiting to hear what our marching 25 orders are in terms of how many meetings we're 18 1 going to need and how many applicants. 2 That is to be determined, so I'm 3 sure it will be posted on the web, and you know 4 everyone will be getting fully briefed and full 5 information as we go forward. As part of the 6 committee report today, I would like to ask Bill 7 to give us maybe a slightly briefer presentation 8 as to what he gave at the Plan Implementation 9 meeting a few weeks ago on cross acceptance 10 plan/endorsement and the draft cross acceptance 11 manual. Bill. 12 MR. HARRISON: Under the State 13 Planning Act, one of the prime things of the 14 State Plan is to identify areas through growth 15 and identify areas for limited growth and 16 identify areas for conservation and the State 17 Plan. It was first adopted in its continued 18 efforts by designating various planning areas and 19 setting up the criteria for those planning areas. 20 Under the State Planning Act, the 21 State Plan is supposed to be readopted every 22 three years under the schedule, which I'll go 23 through in more detail. We're planning to have 24 the State Planning Commission release the next 25 preliminary State Plan in March of 2004 with the 19 1 scheduled adoption of the State Plan in May of 2 2005 under the schedule that we presented to you 3 in May. The cabinet officers, as you remember, 4 came here, indicated their support for the cross 5 acceptance and plan endorsement process, and that 6 is how we will be proceeding based on that. We 7 rewrote the State Plan rules. Those were 8 proposed for adoption by the State Planning 9 Commission in July, and they were published in 10 the September 2nd New Jersey Register. 11 There's a 60 day public comment 12 period which ends on November 1st. Where we are 13 now is the state agencies are submitting their 14 mapping information to the Office of Smart Growth 15 which we will be sending out in November to the 16 counties and municipalities, and basically what 17 we're doing nonstop is printing out the USGS 18 quads that show the existing State Plan 19 designations for each municipality. Then we are 20 taking information we're getting from DOT, 21 Department of Agriculture, DEP. 22 So municipalities and counties and 23 the public can take that information and comment 24 on what changes they think should be made to the 25 planning areas that are shown on the current 20 1 State Plan. They're supposed to get that back to 2 us by January. We will be going over with the 3 state agencies really starting once we get the 4 information and then finalizing that when we get 5 the comments back from the municipalities and 6 counties as to what changes should be made. 7 We're hoping a lot of issues can be 8 resolved, but when we put out the preliminary 9 plan that there are going to be issues that 10 everyone isn't in agreement on that, yes, this 11 planning area should be changed and that can be 12 reflected in the preliminary plan. As I said 13 before, the State Planning Commission would in 14 March then propose the preliminary State Plan, 15 and that would normally start the cross 16 acceptance process. 17 By that point, the proposed rules 18 will have been adopted by the State Planning 19 Commission. They will be in effect for both the 20 cross acceptance and plan endorsement processes, 21 so we'll be operating under the new and hopefully 22 improved rules to do that. We will be proceeding 23 with the cross acceptance -- going through the 24 formal cross acceptance process. 25 That starts with a decision by each 21 1 county to determine whether it will be the 2 negotiating entity for that county. If not, the 3 State Planning Commission designates it. We're 4 hopeful that all the counties will be the 5 negotiating entity. Whoever is the negotiating 6 entity then has the responsibility for doing the 7 negotiations with the municipalities. 8 There is a statement of agreements 9 and disagreements which will then be looked at by 10 the State Planning Commission to determine what 11 changes should be made in the preliminary State 12 Plan. At that point, the draft final plan is 13 released along with a draft impact assessment and 14 a formal comment period is started. 15 There's a requirement in the statute 16 for six public hearings, and a requirement -- 17 that the State Planning Commission, then within 18 60 days after the final public hearing, adopt the 19 final State Plan as I said. That is scheduled to 20 happen in May. While all that is going on, we're 21 actually going to be doing the plan endorsement 22 process. 23 As you're aware, there are a number 24 of counties that have received smart future 25 grants, and have been working toward the plan 22 1 endorsement for a number of years. Some of those 2 counties are coming close to the completion of 3 that work. What we're hoping to have happen is 4 that shortly after the State Planning Commission 5 adopts the new rules, that those counties will be 6 able to come in and do their initial petition for 7 plan endorsement for other entities that are just 8 starting the process. We will be able to hold 9 the meetings that are provided for new rules to 10 lay out for them what needs to be done in order 11 to achieve plan endorsement. 12 One of the things we're doing now 13 with the state agencies is we're getting from 14 each of the relevant state agencies a list of the 15 benefits that will be available on plan 16 endorsement. Some will be available at the 17 initial petition stage. Some will be available 18 at the final petition stage. 19 We're hoping to have a preliminary 20 list ready by early October that we will send out 21 along with the cross acceptance manual and the 22 plan endorsement guidelines, so everyone will 23 have a sense of where we're heading. We can get 24 their comments back, potentially making the 25 adjustments and the rules and as well as 23 1 adjustments in terms of the benefits, so when 2 counties and municipalities start plan 3 endorsement, they will know up front as to what 4 benefits they'll be able to get. 5 (Whereupon Lauren Moore enters the 6 hearing at 10:06 a.m.) 7 These benefits will both be 8 regulatory benefits which will be offered some of 9 those will be streamlining permanent process. 10 Others will be substantive regulatory benefits 11 where there will be a substantive difference in 12 the rules upon achieving plan endorsement. 13 Others, the benefits will be higher priority for 14 various planning programs that will be available. 15 We have preliminary lists from all 16 the departments. We're trying to refine those 17 and organize those; and some overall thought, 18 ultimately with the goal of making sure each 19 agency looks at all the benefits it provides and 20 breaks them into one of these four categories. 21 Those that apply, regardless of Smart Growth 22 growth area or plan endorsement status, those 23 that are public health and safety are the easiest 24 category of those. 25 It should not be affected by whether 24 1 your plan is endorsed or whether you're in the 2 Smart Growth growth area. There are others that 3 are specific to any Smart Growth growth area 4 regardless of plan endorsement; and as I said 5 before, the main benefits will either be 6 available from the initial petition for plan 7 endorsement to final petition plan endorsement. 8 We're kind of seeing that as 9 well -- what we'll be giving will be the general 10 approach, but that might vary from municipality 11 to municipality based on what the specific issues 12 are within that municipality, or there may be 13 some benefits that we provide during the plan 14 endorsement process. For example, when a 15 municipality or a county completes a certain task 16 that might make them eligible for certain 17 benefits at that point, and that's the short 18 version of this. 19 MS. BYERS: Is that it? 20 MR. HARRISON: That's it. 21 MS. BYERS: Are there any questions 22 of the commission members for Bill? I guess that 23 means it's clear, and everybody understands where 24 we're going. Thanks, Bill. Before we move on, I 25 just want to ask if there are any members of the 25 1 public that have questions for this part of the 2 agenda for anything that Bill reported on? Okay. 3 Thanks. We'll move on to our presentation today. 4 Robin, would you like to introduce our presenter? 5 MS. MURRAY: I think we need just a 6 few moments for Rich Roberts to set up. Last 7 week in the Interagency Smart Growth Team 8 meeting, we had a presentation by Rich Roberts 9 who is the Director of Planning for New Jersey 10 Transit. 11 The interagency Smart Growth growth 12 team is a group of, I would say, mid level policy 13 personnel from all the agencies that have the 14 opportunity to both look down at the actual 15 implementation of what's going on in our 16 different divisions and also reach up towards the 17 commissioners with policies that we feel might be 18 helpful in the further implementation; and we get 19 together about once a month to discuss how we can 20 better coordinate our mutual policies, and how we 21 can be more consistent in those policies. 22 And as part of that, Rich Roberts 23 came and talked to us about what New Jersey 24 Transit is doing to support their existing lines 25 and the Smart Growth growth impact of those and 26 1 also talk to us about the policies that they're 2 looking towards for new lines and the locations 3 of those lines, and I felt it would be very 4 informative for the Commission to see that 5 because this is one of the prime ways we can 6 implement Smart Growth. 7 It has a critical role within what 8 happens in New Jersey, to have both passenger 9 service and freight service. There are a number 10 of new groups that have been working on that 11 resolving the conflict so we can most effectively 12 use their rail lines and plan for new ones. 13 MR. ROBERTS: Good morning, 14 everyone. Let me just make sure the technology 15 is working. I'll get started for a few moments. 16 First of all, thank you very much for inviting me 17 to come before you this morning, and things have 18 been different. I would have had a hand out, but 19 we decided last Thursday that I was going to do 20 this, and it was on the eve of New Jersey 21 Transit's entire staff being mobilized for the 22 hurricane. 23 So we were all told to be prepared 24 to disappear into the Netherworld of New Jersey 25 to help run the railroad and the bus runs, and as 27 1 good fortune smiled on us, we didn't have it 2 nearly as bad, although half my staff was 3 dispensed at four corners of New Jersey at about 4 4 a.m. in the morning on Friday morning, bless 5 their souls. Just in case things didn't work out 6 so well, they were out there. 7 So needless to say, the presentation 8 didn't quite come together as quickly. I worked 9 on it over the weekend, so you're going to see my 10 skills with Power Point which are hopefully 11 adequate for this morning. Just as a moment of 12 intro, I always like to check in. If I have to 13 dance a different way, I have my own laptop and a 14 projector and everything. 15 Just so you know my background, I 16 have over 30 years experience in transportation 17 planning. The first 11 years was in land 18 use/land use transportation. Land use meaning 19 like regulation. About 14 years in state 20 government, and the remainder of the other 21 agencies and about six and-a-half years in the 22 private sector, so I've been a little bit of 23 everywhere, and I plan for all different modes of 24 transportation. 25 If it flies, floats, rolls, somehow 28 1 or another, I've been involved in it. The only 2 thing I haven't done is space travel. I haven't 3 gotten that far yet. I'm grateful for that, so I 4 have a pretty broad background. I came to New 5 Jersey Transit about a year ago, but I have been 6 in New Jersey state government early on in my 7 career as I've indicated. That was my service in 8 the state, so I'm very familiar with the state of 9 New Jersey. 10 MS. MURRAY: We'll make sure that we 11 get copies of this presentation to you in the 12 next set of meeting minutes. 13 MR. ROBERTS: Yeah, I'm going to 14 leave this CD behind me and you can print off of 15 that. I have one hard copy I was able to run off 16 very quickly this morning, but it's in black and 17 white, so it doesn't do the full presentation 18 justice. We're almost there. I'm going to stand 19 if you don't mind because I feel a little more 20 comfortable that way, and pardon my back those of 21 you behind me. 22 What I'm going to do is very, very 23 quickly this morning walk through with you what 24 was indicated to you that I presented to the 25 various agency staff about a week ago now, and 29 1 talk about New Jersey Transit, the Smart Growth 2 and public transit, a little bit about our 3 perspective, but I'm also going to do this in a 4 way of sort of giving you a little bit of 5 background on where NJ Transit has been, where is 6 NJT today, where does it need to go, and how does 7 NJT get there. 8 NJT basically took over the state's 9 rail and bus lines in the 1980s, and we began to 10 modernize it, and we built it and that was our 11 first order of business; so through the 80s into 12 the early 90s, that's what we're doing. Largely 13 taking the older rail and bus routes and 14 rebuilding them. As we got into the late 80s and 15 early 90s, we began to address growth. 16 We also then began to, in the late 17 80s and early 90s, began to expand our network 18 within the state of New Jersey which is 19 significant. The Newark, Elizabeth rail line, 20 and the south New Jersey light rail. One of the 21 major things that NJ Transit wanted to accomplish 22 was a dream that goes back to over 100 years, and 23 that was to integrate the commuter rail system in 24 the state, so it would function as one system. 25 So one of the important messages I 30 1 want to leave with you today is where are we, so 2 we've gone from two systems. You see the red and 3 the black. One centered on Newark, New Jersey 4 and Penn Station, New York. The other in 5 Hoboken, and now we have the Secaucus Transfer 6 Station, and that is the rendering of it. Now, 7 we have one system. All lines are red. All are 8 connected, and there is the transfer station. 9 We opened up for weekends earlier 10 this month in September, and by the end of this 11 year, we'll be open for weekday service, and this 12 has profound meaning for the state of New Jersey 13 and for the work that you folks do because what 14 this means is the entire network on the top part 15 of that map is interconnected. 16 People can go from anywhere on those 17 rail lines potentially to anywhere else on those 18 rail lines, and in the interportions of those 19 lines, we will be increasing the rail service 20 frequency and making other improvements, so that 21 there will be a high degree of productivity 22 possible in those communities within New Jersey. 23 We're also improving access into New 24 York City, and that's very critical because a 25 pretty sizeable constituency that we serve, 31 1 customers travel into New York for work and other 2 recreation purposes. The Atlantic City rail line 3 is also slated for improvement. It's not 4 obviously linked up directly with Secaucus 5 Transfer Stations. 6 You have to go into Philly to 7 get there. In a little while we'll have a South 8 Jersey rail line, and if you want to take a 9 slower way you can go from Camden up to Trenton 10 and connect up in New York, but right now, you 11 could go into Philly. What's significant about 12 this system is you now have 11 commuter rail 13 lines, 190 commuter or light rail stations 14 serving 155 communities, 530 miles of railroad 15 right of way. 16 That is a network that we are now 17 bringing together, and we present it to you so 18 that you can think about how you want to plan 19 around that. This is just on the rail side. 20 I'll get to the bus in a short bit. What does 21 this mean in hard terms. It means that now you 22 can travel the Secaucus Transfer Station, aside 23 from the New York City stop, which is on the 24 bottom, it means that now you can go from New 25 Jersey to New Jersey in ways you could never go 32 1 before. 2 You can go from Patterson to Newark 3 in 30 minutes. Now, if you've driven from 4 Patterson to Newark, and you can do it in better 5 than 30 minutes, that has to be because you're 6 driving 75 miles an hour because I live up in 7 that neck of the world, and I drive that and I 8 know you can't do it any faster, and these are 9 just examples. Ridgewood, New Jersey to Trenton 10 in 115. That's an hour and 15 minutes. 11 Again, if you can drive that 12 distance, and you can do it better than an hour 13 and 45 minutes, bless your soul. Maybe there is 14 a state trooper helping to keep you company as 15 you whiz down the turnpike to make that speed, 16 but what this means for the first time is that 17 transit is interconnected, providing the kind of 18 service that is attracted to even somebody who 19 presently drives. 20 There will be some issues because 21 not all stations will have the same level of 22 service, frequency and convenience, but many of 23 them will and that is part of what we wanted to 24 make sure you're aware of. Nevermind again the 25 fact that we'll have improved access to New York 33 1 City for people in Bergen and Passaic counties, 2 which means that communities like Clifton, 3 Passaic, Patterson, Rutherford, Garfield, 4 Ridgewood, Allendale, I can name them all, all 5 will have an enhanced way of getting into New 6 York which will probably -- and it already is 7 showing up in terms of economic development in 8 those communities. 9 Where are we today. Well, a little 10 side message one of the things that NJ Transit 11 continues to work towards is achieving a state of 12 good repair. This is ongoing. We've expanded 13 our network. As I've indicated before, 14 modernized improvement, but we always need to be 15 out there and doing more work. We need a safe 16 and secure network. The security aspect after 17 09/11 has taken on an added dimension, and we're 18 continuing to work on that. 19 Improving customer service today is 20 not the day for me to give you the whole schpiel 21 on customer service, but I wanted to just put it 22 up there so that you're aware that we have that 23 focus. We are, by and large, a customer focused 24 agency because we provide a service. Unlike many 25 of the other state agencies, we are out there day 34 1 to day providing service to the public in terms 2 of our transit service. 3 We need to increase core system 4 capacity. One of the things that we want to 5 leave with you is I've indicated this rail system 6 that we now have in place. Our primary focus now 7 is going to be to keep that system running and 8 increase the capacity. The good news is the 9 growth of this experience in the 90s filled up 10 more of our trains and buses. That's good news. 11 The bad news, if you think of it as 12 bad news, but it isn't, is now we have to expand 13 the capacity in certain locations in that core 14 system, so we can continue to provide a high 15 quality reliable service to the public; and there 16 are many locations on our rail network and some 17 locations on our highway system which we need to 18 work with DOT and the other agencies on where we 19 need to make improvements. 20 We talk about building off the core 21 system, and I'll come back to that again later 22 on. We're largely trying to figure out how to 23 incrementally expand off of our core system into 24 the future. We're not looking to go out and 25 build whole new systems and stuff, so our focus 35 1 is largely to work with what we've got because 2 we've already invested so much money in it. 3 Lastly, Smart Growth, and why Smart 4 Growth is last on this list because Smart Growth 5 is inherent on the kind of work we do. Smart 6 Growth is what makes us work best. A well 7 planned, compact, friendly, well laid out 8 community is what usually means we have the most 9 ridership; so inherent in our activities, we 10 support Smart Growth, and we'd like to see more 11 of it. 12 I want to just give you a sense of 13 how this works out, and a couple of specific 14 instances and I'm going to talk about Newark, New 15 Jersey but I could just as easily talk about 16 Camden, I can talk about Jersey City, I can talk 17 about many other cities in the state, but let me 18 just use Newark. 19 Right now in thinking through to the 20 future, we are on the verge of expanding our 21 light rail system in Newark, the Newark City 22 Subway, and here you have in the picture looking 23 north along Broad Street in Newark, and you see 24 the rendering shows the light rail. This is 25 under construction today, and in another few 36 1 years, couple years, we're going to have the 2 system up and running. 3 What does this mean. This means 4 that you'll be able to go from the Newark Penn 5 Station past the Arts Center up back behind Broad 6 Street and up to the Broad Street Station. 7 Basically, connecting one whole major section in 8 downtown Newark that previously hadn't been 9 connected with Penn Station in Newark, and also 10 the Broad Street Station. Again, another level 11 of productivity. 12 A whole lot of possible development 13 could be planned in that area and particularly 14 around Penn Station, and we are very anxious to 15 work with all the agencies to try to see that 16 happen. We are not a land use planning agency, 17 so what we usually get involved in is try to 18 control, befriend, help out; so when we talk 19 about Smart Growth, a lot of talk for you folks 20 because you're sort of in a different seat than 21 we are, we have to go in and we have to use more 22 carrots to get people to think. 23 I want to use this as an example. 24 This is Broad Street Station in Newark, and on 25 the right side of the picture you see the old 37 1 historic station which we're going to invest a 2 lot of money in to restore and upgrade and make 3 it look very attractive. We have a light rail 4 transit there, and on the left side is this old 5 industrial building, Westinghouse Plant, which is 6 long ago stopped being used and we would like to 7 see something done with it. 8 So we're in constant contact with 9 other state agencies of the city of Newark 10 hoping, hoping, please, please somebody do 11 something great and wonderful with that building 12 since we have all this invested in the transit, 13 and this would really be a tremendous boom to 14 that particular area of Newark, if you know it. 15 Let me switch a little bit, and go over to our 16 bus system. 17 I've spoken a lot about our rail 18 system, but I don't want to forget the fact that 19 we have a very extensive bus system which 20 actually provides the majority of the service to 21 the public of New Jersey in much more than 22 intrastate travel at the moment. We have 238 bus 23 routes. 24 Statistics are up to 17,000 bus 25 stops to 28,000 in all counties, and you see the 38 1 lines and how they sort of cluster and this is 2 the backbone of a lot of what we provide 3 actually; so while a lot of discussion in Smart 4 Growth and other places is focused on rail 5 stations, I would add that we shouldn't forget 6 the major bus stops also because those also could 7 be very attractive as locations to foster 8 economic development. 9 We do have this wonderful system. 10 Where do we need to go? Well, New Jersey Transit 11 at this point is looking to develop a true 12 multimodal system, and what that means is as we 13 progress into the future and enhance and improve 14 our commuter rail system, and commuter rail 15 system is really going to morph into something 16 different, and what it's going to morph into in 17 another few years is something you would see in 18 Europe. 19 If you've been to Europe and ride 20 the systems there, and pick a city, anyone you 21 want, Frankford, Amsterdam, Cologne, Paris, they 22 have something they call a regional rail system 23 which is a mix of rail services and bus, and 24 that's what we're moving into here in New Jersey. 25 We're finally at the point where after a couple 39 1 of decades or more, we're going to be able to 2 take the train station in the state and develop 3 it more along the European model. 4 Where you can move between the modes 5 more easily and readily. We want to integrate 6 our services. What that means is we want to 7 improve both bus and rail so people will not feel 8 it's a challenge to them to move between the 9 services. Today, if you ask somebody who uses 10 rail service to take a bus, they frown at you 11 because they look at it as a second class type of 12 mode, and there are reasons for that. 13 We need to improve the speed and 14 reliability of both rail and bus. Why do people 15 not find buses attractive? It's largely because 16 the buses travel at slower speeds on streets, 17 stuck behind traffic like all the rest of us do; 18 and the other problem is because they get stuck 19 in that congestion. Not only are they slow, but 20 they're not as reliable. 21 And today, you know, we're a very 22 impatient society as we all know. I know I am. 23 Having worked enough years in this region, if you 24 go down to Mississippi, which I have, you quickly 25 pick up the difference between somebody who is up 40 1 here, and somebody down there. Develop an 2 integrated bus and rail system with greater 3 frequency and convenience. 4 The frequency is the key. What is 5 central to being able to enable us to connect the 6 state together is the frequency. Yes, speed is 7 important and other things are important, but if 8 you have the frequency, people will think, gee, 9 you know, there is a train or a bus every ten 10 minutes. Gee, it's not so bad to take it because 11 if my schedule doesn't work the way I hope it 12 would, I can still get back to where I need to, 13 and that's key. 14 Up to now, a lot of New Jersey 15 Transit's rail system, and a good part of its bus 16 systems was largely oriented to commuters, so we 17 ran in the morning, we ran in the afternoon, and 18 the midday was whatever we did except on one or 19 two lines; and now what we're going to be doing 20 is looking at that, so we're going to be also 21 looking to serve, not just the New York 22 commuters, but also intrastate travel. 23 Particularly with the rail system 24 which hasn't served that function very much. I 25 said the bus system largely performed that 41 1 service over the years, and now we're at that 2 point, and serve needs beyond journey to work. 3 That was my point a moment ago. One of the 4 things we need to do is enrich the off peak 5 service. 6 If you ride the northeast corridor 7 in the later afternoon, you can see how crowded 8 their trains get. How do we get to where we need 9 to go. I use new technology, and I won't 10 elaborate on that. It's already noted. Increase 11 core system capacity, as I said before, expand 12 access and reach of our truck line services. 13 One of the key things that we are 14 very anxious to work with agencies on is to 15 figure out how we can get away from just focusing 16 on pin point locations like a rail station, but 17 how can we think about an area, a neighborhood, 18 maybe several neighborhoods, or a larger 19 community because the fact of the matter 20 is -- and I'll get to this a little bit later on. 21 And again, it's very hard for every 22 one of our stations to be places where you 23 develop around because of history and community 24 issues and etc. The greater frequency service 25 plus reliability plus convenient connections will 42 1 equal the multimodal system that I spoke of 2 before, and we're moving it. 3 Well, the one missing piece, and I 4 won't get too hard on this, but is funding, and 5 frankly our tin cup is pretty empty, and I didn't 6 bring it this morning to rattle, but there will 7 be a lot with the state and down in Washington to 8 provide us the funds. Frankly, that's a big 9 issue. I want to talk a little bit about where 10 we are headed with all this. Well, just to give 11 you a couple of different types of examples. 12 You know, Montclair City University. 13 This is under construction today. It is a 14 parking garage and station. Part of the station 15 is open today, and part of it is a parking 16 garage, and some of the walkway is still under 17 construction, but what will be the effect. The 18 effect will be able to have a large model, bus 19 and rail service right on the edge of the 20 Montclair state campus which has 14,000 students 21 able to get to and from Newark, able to get to 22 New York, anywhere you want to name. 23 It's this kind of productivity, and 24 this kind of a generator that we want to achieve 25 our success, and on a whole different scale, 43 1 Rutherford, New Jersey. This could easily be 2 Westfield. It could be Ridgewood. It could be 3 all kinds of communities. It could be some 4 communities here in southern New Jersey, and here 5 you get the interaction that we're trying to get 6 towards with the bus, the train station, and 7 behind you see the framing of a building. 8 That's a parking garage, and this 9 was all part of our transit friendly community 10 effort, so we work with the community. We 11 achieved a vision, and some next steps with them 12 we backed away and the community took it the rest 13 of the distance that is now occurring, and I 14 believe the parking garage should be open next 15 year. One of our major projects, and I'll talk 16 just very briefly about it, is access to the 17 region core. 18 What is this. This is a major 19 project on our part to try to improve access into 20 New York City, but it's also fundamental to be 21 able to expand transit in New Jersey, and I want 22 you to be aware of it because you've seen the 23 governor perhaps address it and some other 24 statements about it. Basically, it's a large 25 scale rail project. 44 1 They haven't attempted anything like 2 this since they built the Pennsylvania Railroad 3 from Newark, New Jersey under the Hudson into New 4 York City back at the turn of the century; so 5 maybe about once every century, somebody gets 6 bold enough to dream these kinds of dreams, and 7 that's where we are again. We're going to be 8 providing additional track in the meadows 9 parallel to the northeast corridor replacing the 10 bridge over the Hackensack River. 11 If you've ever traveled the train to 12 New York, and you go over that wonderful swing 13 span bridge over the Hackensack River, a new 14 tunnel under the Hudson River and new station 15 capacity, approximately, to Penn Station New 16 York. The DEIS for this is now under way. We 17 expect to have it completed in about two years, 18 and this project is about four to five billion 19 dollars. 20 By the way, if you took the old 21 Pennsylvania Railroad project, and you escalated 22 all the other things, it's in the same ball park, 23 so we're not out of proportion, and this just 24 gives you a hint of the project going into Penn 25 Station. What is significant about this is it 45 1 further interconnects Northern New Jersey, 2 particularly, Bergen, Passaic Counties, and some 3 other places into New York, gives them the direct 4 rail access to New York which they're seeking, 5 but it also opens up a critical bottle neck. 6 What we've done over the years is 7 take all the rail lines, if you think of the wide 8 part of a funnel, we've taken that radial system, 9 the wide part of the funnel, and now we've 10 connected them and interconnected. Then as you 11 begin to approach Newark, New Jersey, everything 12 comes together. 13 As you get a little east of Newark, 14 more stuff comes together, so the neck of the 15 funnel now needs to be widened, and that's what 16 we're doing, which also has ramifications for, 17 again, intrastate travel as well. Let me talk 18 about other things in the pipe line very briefly. 19 Before you are all the various 20 projects that we are now advancing following the 21 federal process in federal transit administration 22 process, various DEIS's, and they're now 23 progressing through the whole sequence of steps 24 so we're progressing all these projects. We have 25 yet to render an absolute decision on which of 46 1 these projects we're going to be able to advance, 2 and I'll tell you right now that we don't have 3 the money to do any of these at this moment in 4 our piggy bank. 5 But we're also advancing some other 6 projects which are outside the federal process to 7 some degree only because either they're at an 8 early stage conception or because they're just 9 different. Atlantic City Rail Line is different. 10 It's a smaller scale project, and we have some 11 planning. Our intention over time is to improve 12 rail lines so we can add frequency of service 13 there, and make some other improvements. 14 The bus rapid transit here in 15 greater Princeton, I want to emphasize that 16 because that gives access of reach to them down 17 here in this neck of the woods around Princeton, 18 beginning all the way up basically North 19 Brunswick and South Brunswick here to Trenton to 20 improve bus service integrated with rail service; 21 and this effort was a wonderful joint effort 22 between ourselves, New Jersey DOT, and North 23 Jersey Planning Authority and Delaware Valley 24 Regional Planning. Wonderful joint effort. 25 Integration of rail and bus services 47 1 in internal efforts that we're moving in. Let me 2 switch to Smart Growth implications. I've given 3 you very briefly our program and some of the 4 nuances of it. What are some of the lessons that 5 have been learned in New Jersey Transit. First 6 of all, one of the things is focus on our 7 existing system. 8 We have to do all of this investment 9 expanding or talking about expansion to new 10 areas. It's problematic. I'm not sure where the 11 money is going to come from, and the issue about 12 frequency of service, but on other existing 13 lines, we're going to be prepared to do a lot 14 more. Promote the mixed use development around 15 the rail stations. 16 One of the things we've found in 17 working with different communities is that mixes 18 of retail, some office, some housing works best 19 in generating ridership for trains and creates 20 the best relationship between the rail station or 21 the bus station and the surrounding development. 22 Site plan detail counts, especially access to 23 station or stops. 24 One of the things we often find is 25 everybody gets on the right page on a large 48 1 scale, and then we get to local access issues and 2 we slip off the page and the access to the train 3 station and bus stop is second class, and people 4 therefore don't want to use the service. Expand 5 access and reach. I said earlier this is a major 6 thing we're trying to focus on. 7 How do we expand the area around the 8 rail station, and benefit some of these 9 higher -- or it could be a bus facility, too. 10 But how do we create a larger sphere of activity. 11 Historically, we find that within a quarter mile 12 of such a facility, there is a very clear 13 relationship of benefits with ridership and so 14 on, but we need to go beyond that quarter mile, 15 and we can't put stations or stops too close 16 together because what happens to us is we start 17 doing it, no, that's easy. 18 We'll just put more stops in. Well, 19 what happens if you slow down with service, and 20 that is the key goal is to always be just 21 slightly ahead if we can of what it takes for 22 somebody to drive to and from some place. 23 Improve bus services through preferential 24 treatments on highways and roads. 25 This is something we're working with 49 1 other agencies on to try to enhance our bus 2 system, so that it will be as attractive as our 3 rail system, so let me just quickly close. We 4 regard our existing bus and rail systems as a 5 tremendous opportunity for you folks and 6 everybody else to regard as an asset. 7 We are going to be primarily focused 8 on maintaining our core system and future 9 fundings of challenges. That is why we encourage 10 you to focus in on the core system and not put 11 too much emphasis on where we may spend because 12 who knows the funding we will receive. 13 And the last is what I stated 14 earlier. Smart Growth is inherent to what we do, 15 so we're right with you on the same page towards 16 Smart Growth in this state, and we'll be willing 17 to help wherever we can. We have somewhat 18 limited resources, but we're always glad to be of 19 some assistance, and with that, I'll close out 20 with my favorite picture. So if there is any 21 questions, just let me know. 22 MS. BYERS: Thank you very much. 23 That was quite informative. I'd like to ask any 24 of the Commission members if they have questions. 25 MS. LENNON: I know it was an issue 50 1 in the day's past, which it sounds like Hoboken 2 and the Jersey City of the world, as we keep on 3 increasing the capacity or the ability for people 4 to get on the train up stream, I know that there 5 was great difficulty -- I don't know what state, 6 what the current state of capacity is as you get 7 down stream. 8 MR. ROBERTS: Downstream into a 9 place like Hoboken, we're making those 10 improvements now. The old tunnels under the 11 Palisades which are 100 years old are in the 12 final stages of being rebuilt, and by next year 13 they will be open, so on our commuter rail 14 system, that will be addressed. 15 On the light rail system there are 16 more improvements being advanced to expand the 17 light rail system north of Hoboken up to 18 Weehawkin and Ferry Terminal and out through 19 under the Palisades into the Meadowlands, eastern 20 part of the Meadowlands rather. We do have 21 capacity issues on some of our commuter rail 22 lines as I referred to them, and we are looking 23 for ways to improve capacity on those lines in 24 some additional parallel tracks. 25 The State of New Jersey reduced by 51 1 50 percent the amount of rail network that it had 2 post World War II. We went through a tremendous 3 period of ripping some stuff out. We went from 4 four tracks to two, from two tracks to one. 5 Well, history has changed itself. Rail freight 6 will rebound and unfortunately, when they ripped 7 everything out, people made decisions to put 8 things in the way, so we have our hands full, but 9 we're doing it. We're struggling. 10 MS. BYERS: Anyone else? 11 MR. FISHER: We received periodic 12 updates on transit villages and had numbers 13 designated and some future transit. Could you 14 give us a brief update as to where either transit 15 or DOT is with new locations. 16 MR. ROBERTS: DOT can speak to that 17 better. We are the participant in the 18 conversation. We don't drive the dialogue. The 19 department does. 20 MR. FISHER: Well, I guess the 21 question is what does DOT or Transit look for in 22 being a transit village. 23 MR. BARNES: I'm going to announce 24 that a little bit later on in the commissioner's 25 reports. We have transit village web pages up 52 1 now on the DOT site, and I think that will give 2 you a lot of information on criteria for 3 selection of villages. We are in, within the 4 next couple of weeks, going to make the 5 announcements on a number of new village 6 designations under our program, and I'm not at 7 liberty to say where we're going with that, but I 8 would guess within certainly two weeks we'll have 9 those designations done. 10 MR. ROBERTS: Just from our point of 11 view, we interact with DOT and other agencies 12 on that, and what we provide them is knowledge 13 about the existing services and near term 14 improvements that we expect, so it is close 15 collaboration. 16 MS. PURCELL: I have a silly 17 question. What is a DEIS? 18 MR. ROBERTS: Draft Environmental 19 Impact Statement. 20 MR. MOORE: You increase capacity 21 on the lines. Are you addressing parking at the 22 various stations? 23 MR. ROBERTS: Yes, the governor 24 announced a program to add 20,000 more parking 25 spaces over the next five years. Some 16 to 53 1 17,000 of those are basically ones that are under 2 New Jersey Transit's direct responsibility and, 3 yes, we are expanding parking. I just didn't 4 mention, we have a Montclair state garage that I 5 showed you in the slide which is 1500 spaces. 6 The parking garage is under 7 construction now. It has two companion projects 8 that are trying to work their way through, and 9 another one is under construction; and there is a 10 third which is a little bit further back which we 11 hope would occur in Wayne right near Route 23, so 12 there is a whole vast program to expand parking. 13 We are trying to balance the 14 expansion of parking with some other tools, so 15 I'll just add that because not every community is 16 as interested. They are also working on shuttle 17 bus and other types of ways for the stations. 18 MR. MOORE: Thank you. 19 MS. BYERS: I had a question. What 20 type of coordination exists now between New 21 Jersey Transit and say the agency review for plan 22 endorsement and center designation? Is there a 23 direct automatic structure in place already, or 24 do we need to encourage that? It just seems to 25 me that what you've outlined is extremely 54 1 exciting and positive towards implementing the 2 State Plan, and the more we can do to mesh the 3 plan endorsement process, if we can even 4 prioritize some of our efforts along with the 5 efforts you're making, we can really expedite and 6 build on each others programs. 7 MS. MURRAY: Part of the plan 8 endorsement process requires input from all the 9 different agencies as to what they would like to 10 see in terms of requirements for submittals and 11 circulation plans, and multimodal issues are part 12 of that so that the communities have to bring in 13 those planning aspects to the plan endorsement 14 process. 15 And then additionally, the Office of 16 Smart Growth sets up interagency reviews so that 17 it works in the opposite direction that we review 18 what the municipality submits and have all the 19 agencies coordinated together in terms of what 20 they feel needs to be improved, studied and 21 changed in order to be consistent with the State 22 Plan. 23 MS. BYERS: So New Jersey Transit is 24 actually one of the agencies that is 25 automatically continually included in these 55 1 discussions? 2 MS. MURRAY: Yes, in all of our 3 interagency coordination and meetings, we always 4 have New Jersey Transit at the table. We always 5 have DOT at the table, DEP, Agriculture. What 6 we're actually trying to do is expand that to 7 some of the less intuitive agencies that you 8 might not necessarily think have a Smart Growth 9 impact, but Commerce is always part of our 10 growth. So we're looking to expand that, so we 11 always make sure we're a multiagency response. 12 MS. BYERS: I think that's really 13 important and critical even because the way the 14 State Planning Act was written not every agency 15 has a seat here, and I think if we were rewriting 16 it today, we'd want to have Education and New 17 Jersey Transit and maybe some others that are so 18 important to the State Plan; but if you can at 19 least capture it outside that process and make 20 sure they're at the table, and it's just as 21 important, if not even more important on DOT in 22 some ways, no slight intended. 23 MR. BARNES: It's okay. We're used 24 to it. 25 MS. MURRAY: We're just now in the 56 1 process of trying to complete with what one 2 considered major agencies, in terms of the plan 3 endorsement requirements that they have and the 4 benefits they'll provide; but as soon as we can 5 get a good grip on that, we intend to go out to 6 the other agencies and divisions and see who else 7 may have some program and some benefit that we 8 can add on to it. It will be a rolling 9 admissions. 10 MR. ESKILSON: With respect to 11 Transit, so we can understand a local or regional 12 plan called for a New Jersey Transit presence, a 13 rail stop, a bus stop and perhaps design a 14 transit oriented village around that and that 15 plan were endorsed by history, that would do what 16 as far as giving a leg up, these are the other -- 17 MS. MURRAY: I'm not clear on your 18 question. 19 MR. ESKILSON: The benefits -- 20 you're endorsing a plan that includes 21 transportation, specifically transit, NJ Transit 22 stops, perhaps even new stops, and perhaps 23 transit oriented designs would not exist. If 24 that plan were in fact to be endorsed, what type 25 of benefits do we see? What's the leg up, how 57 1 does that move faster, what is the process. 2 It's nice to talk about it in terms 3 of generalities, but when it comes down to 4 submitting a plan with specific concerns of 5 municipalities, specific plans with respect to 6 transportation, what happens once they're 7 endorsed? I'm not looking for an answer right 8 now. It's the kind of thing that we need to 9 think about in the next couple of weeks. 10 MS. MURRAY: One of the things that 11 has actually been in place is a number of 12 programs have been modified over the last year to 13 provide additional points or additional benefits 14 if you have a transit location or you were doing 15 certain transit oriented programs. HMFA has 16 directed a number of their programs towards 17 transit villages, so it's actually already been 18 in place over the course of the last year, and 19 we're just increasing that. 20 MR. ROBERTS: Let me add one thing 21 about new stations. We are in fact getting a lot 22 more inquiries from the development community 23 about Transit which is great, and they do want 24 more station stops. One of our responses back to 25 them is you need to find the money to pay for 58 1 these facilities. Just so you know, a rail 2 station doesn't come at a low price tag. They're 3 fairly expensive. Bus stops and bus stations are 4 more affordable. 5 One of the things we do is go back 6 to the developer and say we'll be glad to work 7 with you and help you find the things that need 8 to be done, but you need to find some money to 9 bring to the table because our piggy bank doesn't 10 have that kind of money in it. 11 MS. BYERS: Thanks. I'd like to ask 12 if there are any members of the public that have 13 any questions for Mr. Roberts before we move on. 14 Please come up to the microphone and state 15 clearly your name and affiliation for the 16 stenographer. 17 MR. TITTEL: Jeff Tittel. New 18 Jersey Sierra Club. A couple of questions. I'm 19 glad that when you start in the direction one of 20 my pet peeves has been the lack of coordination 21 between the different parts of New Jersey Transit 22 as well as the fact that a rail system is so old 23 that many of the stops are put in place, you 24 know, well before current patterns of 25 development. 59 1 My favorite pet peeve is the route 2 line that runs past Willow Brook Mall which is 3 probably a major job, and the train line runs 4 within a quarter mile of the bus station which a 5 dozen buses go through that, yet there is not a 6 rail stop. That is one example, or I guess my 7 other concern is along those lines, and again 8 related to the parking decks, if it wasn't for 9 Sierra Club and other groups in the Orange area 10 which is common which is a wonderful development, 11 instead we have a different service. 12 And I guess I'm looking at how to 13 integrate, you know, a transit pattern with not 14 only development but also when you look at rural 15 areas, you do run the rail, how do we get growth 16 of running the rail to promote growth just as 17 much as an -- 18 MR. ROBERTS: You hit me with 19 several points, and let me see if I can respond 20 to each of them. First of all, just to touch on 21 the location of the Willow Brook Mall. One of 22 things that we find is it is very difficult to 23 acquire property. We have to work with local 24 communities, so trying to find a spot next to 25 Willow Brook Mall the township of Wayne would 60 1 acquire and we can work with, we've done the best 2 we can. 3 We have a location just a little bit 4 further away from the mall project, and it's what 5 we could get, and get within some reasonable 6 costs. I'm not sure the town supports it 7 entirely, but the key central point there is that 8 New Jersey Transit doesn't have the ability to go 9 in, and it doesn't choose, to bully communities. 10 Under our present manager, that is not our way to 11 deal with things. 12 To deal with how you work on a local 13 level on shuttles is in helping organize shuttle 14 programs, so I'm very open to try to organize bus 15 shuttles, and we don't need a big parking garage 16 everywhere. I agree with you, and I think we're 17 trying to figure out where those will work best. 18 That is why I mentioned the DRT in the Princeton 19 area. 20 That is something we hope will 21 succeed and eliminate the need for much more of 22 that. In terms of transit fostering development 23 in further out areas, I'll be honest. I don't 24 really think it will have that effect very much. 25 The only way it would is if we offer two things. 61 1 One, if we offer express services from those 2 outlying locations into the inner core, and the 3 second is if we offer that kind of frequency. 4 Both of which are highly unlikely 5 because inheriting what we do is density of 6 patronism. If we don't have people to fill the 7 trains, there is a likelihood that we're going to 8 run a lot of trains out to where ever you want to 9 pick out in western New Jersey is unlikely 10 because bottom line is unlike some other 11 entities, we have to pay a lot of attention to 12 what our operating expenses are, so if we don't 13 have the ridership, we don't have the fair 14 remedy. 15 And our present management 16 has -- our executive director has emphasized that 17 enormously, so I'm not sure you'll see us in any 18 situations where we'll be encouraging development 19 in applications; and we're working very closely 20 with all the agencies to try to sort out what is 21 an appropriate response for providing public 22 transit in some areas that are not as densely 23 developed. 24 That is one of the reasons why I 25 keep noting the fact that we're trying to improve 62 1 bus as well as rail because a lot of the rail 2 everybody wants a rail line going here and 3 everywhere; but the practical side of it is maybe 4 with more appropriate -- to provide some level of 5 service not to cause problems, but be a very good 6 bus service. 7 MR. TITTEL: I want to follow up on 8 the department issue. A lot of cities now, 9 whether you build a deck in a developed area, are 10 requiring basically to put in some sort of 11 commercial or some office in the front, so that 12 you don't create dead zones in downtown Portland, 13 Oregon, Philadelphia, some other cities. 14 MR. ROBERTS: Charlotte, North 15 Carolina is an example. 16 MR. TITTEL: Meaning beyond what 17 you're referring to. 18 MR. ROBERTS: I'm totally in accord, 19 and the other thing too, I'll just note, in terms 20 of station. When I meet with developers, I tell 21 the developers the last thing in the world we 22 need is a free standing building that will become 23 another major expense, so the developers are 24 planning new development. 25 If you want to have a station, can 63 1 we build a new development around the function of 2 the station; so in effect, the station function 3 is built in so I don't care what kind of a 4 building it is, retail or office, housing; so 5 it's not something out there free standing and 6 separate because we have enumerable facilities 7 now which nobody quite owns in a sense of really 8 wanting to do something with them and New Jersey 9 Transit does them and we have to fix them up, but 10 their functionality has gone by the bullets. 11 The reason why they were built years 12 ago, they're great for historic reasons, but they 13 really don't add a lot for customers. 14 MR. TITTEL: I've been involved in 15 the issue a long time. One of the projects on 16 your list is the Union County light rail. I was 17 involved in the study group for the union county 18 transportation committee back in the mid 70s 19 where it was supposed to be a cap section, so I 20 was a very quiet and shy 20 year old. 21 MS. BYERS: I don't think we fell 22 for that one, Jeff. 23 MS. HEINRICH: I'm Helen Heinrich, 24 and I'm a professional planner that does a lot of 25 work with New Jersey and in rural areas. I have 64 1 a couple of questions for Mr. Roberts. You say 2 you need a certain kind of density around 3 stations. What are you looking for? 4 MR. ROBERTS: At least ten to 20 5 units per acre for buses, but that's not a rail 6 type of situation. Buses can operate at lower 7 densities. That's why I mentioned buses because 8 we don't need the same kind of density; and by 9 the way, ten to 12 units per acre, we're on the 10 margin of getting the kind of ridership on the 11 rail system that's needed. You're not going to 12 hit bingo unless you get up 20 or better on the 13 rail. 14 MS. HEINRICH: Do you have sort of a 15 ball park figure for buses as well? 16 MR. ROBERTS: Buses are more 17 flexible. You can start lower. I mean, you 18 know, the big issue on buses is not so much the 19 density per acre, but it's how you cluster the 20 housing; so if you take a plot of land and you 21 put the housing in the middle and keep the open 22 space on the outside and you put the housing so 23 that it's close enough so the people -- it's like 24 20 dwelling units can walk easily to one or two 25 stops, the bus service will probably do fine. 65 1 What we have today of course is not 2 that. We have everybody has their piece of land 3 and house and more land and the bus stops are 4 spread out, and too frequent, and again it's not 5 very convenient. 6 MS. HEINRICH: And is there a plan 7 to coordinate your system with the county bus 8 lines? 9 MR. ROBERTS: We actually contract 10 for the counties and with the counties for those 11 lines, so there is some coordination already 12 existing with the counties. That pertains to 13 certain, what I call the fixed rate. There is 14 another level of activity the counties get 15 involved in with senior citizens and other kinds 16 of bus routes which there is some coordination 17 there but less so because that really gets 18 operated under usually more of a social agency 19 function, not under the transportation function. 20 MS. HEINRICH: Is this something you 21 might do in the future to really have a 22 connecting system? 23 MR. ROBERTS: Maybe. They operate 24 entirely differently than we do, and largely we 25 operate New Jersey Transit fixed schedule, fixed 66 1 route services. They tend to operate, what I 2 would call, more customized services. It's very 3 difficult for us to always make sure we fit 4 together. We do that to a certain extent. 5 We interact with some of the 6 counties, so it's not that we don't do it. I'm 7 just not sure, I'm going to say, that we do a lot 8 more of it. It depends on the county. If the 9 county comes to us and says we really want to 10 work with you, we're open to doing things with 11 them, but there is some basic differences in what 12 we do. 13 We have a fixed route, fixed 14 schedule service and if a customize service 15 arrives at a location too late, our fixed 16 schedule service has to move to its next point, 17 and it's somewhat awkward in the coordination. 18 On rail services there is more opportunity maybe 19 on more locations. 20 MS. HEINRICH: And is your agency or 21 anyone here thinking in terms of informal density 22 transfers, increasing the density that some of 23 these stations need as bus terminals and 24 transferring the density from the rural areas to 25 the developers? 67 1 MR. ROBERTS: That is somebody else. 2 That's not us. We are not in that end of the 3 world. 4 MS. HEINRICH: We are in that end of 5 the world, and I guess we'd like to see everybody 6 keep that up front as a possibility. We don't 7 believe you necessarily need new legislation to 8 do that. It can be done under density transfer 9 right now. 10 MR. ESKILSON: That issue has come 11 up and will continue to come up in Sussex County 12 so there is a specific instance where that is 13 being discussed. Some future rail line 14 opportunities to transfer density into rail 15 station areas. It hasn't happened yet, but we 16 are looking specifically at that issue. Our 17 mobility study is also looking at the county bus 18 service. Even the social service end of it and 19 DOT. 20 MR. ROBERTS: There is another level 21 of interaction. Let me talk about who connects 22 who with what. There is another group called a 23 Transportation Management Association which are 24 organized in many parts of the state, and we 25 interact regularly with them, and they sort of 68 1 provide ride sharing, car pooling, customized bus 2 service, van service, shuttle services; and they 3 interact with the counties in all the places that 4 you're talking about including job to work 5 programs and so forth, so there is somebody in 6 there doing stuff that we interface with. That's 7 the point. 8 MS. BYERS: Anything else? 9 MS. HEINRICH: Yes, two more 10 questions. In what you said, it sounded like 11 some communities might be able to have stations 12 with improved frequency, and yet not have to do 13 anything to accommodate increasing the density so 14 that the ridership will be improved, and I say 15 this because I live in one, that I'm afraid is, 16 if I heard you right, is going to have the 17 property values continually rise which has a 18 great line into New York City, but they're not 19 willing to do anything providing more parking, 20 and I know that's not something you can change. 21 MR. ROBERTS: You know, in New 22 Jersey each community has a different set of 23 priorities and expectations. There are 24 communities along the northeast corridor, some of 25 which are already part of different programs. 69 1 Rahway is an example where it is pretty dense 2 already, and you can improve and fix it up and 3 they are willing to work with you in terms of all 4 the issues you need to make more use of the train 5 service and so forth. 6 There are other communities that are 7 more concerned, and you know we have again what 8 New Jersey transit's philosophy at this time is 9 we don't want to go in and bully communities. We 10 need them. We need them on a day to day basis, 11 so we need to be okay with what they do by and 12 large. If they don't want to work with us, 13 that's the way it is. You know, we try to do the 14 best we can to educate them, but we are not 15 desirous to force them. 16 MS. HEINRICH: Perhaps that might be 17 a question in the plan endorsement process 18 whether that should be a question. 19 MS. MURRAY: One of the reasons we 20 are trying so strongly to encourage plan 21 endorsement is it addresses these different 22 issues. Instead of looking only at your center, 23 you're looking at your entire community and also 24 the municipalities that surround you, so you can 25 work in a regional beneficial way for everyone, 70 1 so that's part of the process. That's why we're 2 working so quickly on it. 3 MS. HEINRICH: I'm glad to hear 4 that, and I hope it will come to fruition pretty 5 quickly. Last question is what's the connection 6 between improving the ridership and the supply of 7 Affordable Housing, is there a link? Should the 8 towns with stations have a growth share? What's 9 the connection? You talk about mixed use, but I 10 didn't see very much talk about housing. 11 MS. MURRAY: I think the new rules 12 that COAH is working on have tried to address 13 that. I think there is an issue of trying to 14 find a positive way to bring in Affordable 15 Housing where it's needed, and to allow them an 16 opportunity to use Transit, so I would say yes, 17 that's part of the plan endorsement. 18 MR. ROBERTS: There is one thing 19 I'll add to Affordable Housing. There is, 20 through the federal government location efficient 21 mortgages, so that if you have transit, a transit 22 in a community, that it will be willing to give 23 you a mortgage where they calculate -- when they 24 calculate what your ability is to pay, they take 25 into account that you don't need to own a second 71 1 car, so they allow you to take more of your 2 income and apply it to the mortgage. Now, it's 3 not quite what you're talking about, but it is 4 close in that direction. 5 MS. MURRAY: There is also a number 6 of new programs as I mentioned earlier, the HMFA 7 has been developing. If you look at their web 8 site, they give lower interest loans in transit 9 areas, provide opportunities to people to go in 10 and redevelop existing houses that are all 11 supportive of making Affordable Housing within 12 the transit areas. 13 MR. ROBERTS: Just one last thing, 14 and that is a lot of the more recent 15 conversations we're having with developers is all 16 very positive in this regard, both with regard to 17 housing and a mix of housing types, so I'd like 18 to leave it on the positive note that in fact, at 19 least from where we sit at the table and the 20 people that we speak to, we're getting the kind 21 of reaction that we would hope. 22 MR. BYERS: We'll take one more 23 question from the public, and then we'll move on. 24 Tom. 25 MR. DALLESSIO: Tom Dallessio, New 72 1 Jersey director of Regional Plan Association. I 2 don't have a comment. Perhaps a request. We've 3 had the pleasure of working with Rich Roberts and 4 the New Jersey Transit staff on a number of 5 items. Hearing Rich talk about a regional rail 6 system is music to our ears and we appreciate 7 that, and any further discussion of that in a 8 preliminary State Plan and cross acceptance would 9 be great. 10 This whole discussion about how to 11 encourage transit around stations is wonderful. 12 We've had the pleasure of working as a consultant 13 in the transit station activities, and the whole 14 principal within the State Plan about designs is 15 critically important among the communities and 16 the more we can expand planning services in 17 individual towns, the better off we are in that 18 effort. 19 I'd like to ask you to consider the 20 discussion about the access to the region's core. 21 We have a particular interest in that. We've 22 been working with New Jersey Transit and others 23 to advance an idea that gets us to New York City 24 and beyond, and what I'd like to ask the State 25 Planning Commission and others to do is to pay 73 1 attention to the draft environmental impact 2 statement scoping process, which I understand 3 should be commencing over the next 60 days. 4 It's an opportunity, I think, to 5 look at, not just beyond our borders, but how 6 critical infrastructure investment is. Again, 7 the first in the century can have a profound 8 affect, not just in New York City, but in the 9 tristate area. In particular, with New Jersey, 10 getting 25 additional trains per hour into New 11 York City will be phenomenal. 12 We are doing research, and we will 13 assist New Jersey Transit and others on that, 14 linking jobs, commuting and other opportunities 15 for economic development. We found a great 16 majority of the jobs in the last few decades 17 going to New Jerseyians, finding a great number 18 of them commutes into New York City, because New 19 Jerseyians are commuting in. 20 How do we accommodate that need, and 21 as Rich has indicated, you have that tunnel that 22 will then free up opportunities throughout New 23 Jersey as well as possible new rail lines. We do 24 need to be ambitious about looking at those rail 25 lines, where the funding will come from and how 74 1 to plan around them, and I think I agree with 2 Helen Heinrich that we need to provide some real 3 incentives, and some real links to provide 4 infrastructure to insure certain types of 5 investments in the communities. 6 But in particular on the access to 7 the region's core, we at Regional Plan 8 Association believe it's not just necessary to 9 get people to New York City, but also to where 10 they're working and on the map that Rich showed 11 you, under the current situation, we are talking 12 about a rail link that will get you to the Penn 13 Station area. We very much believe in beneficial 14 redundancy. 15 I think the State Planning 16 Commission and others should use that as one of 17 their guiding principals. God forbid something 18 were to happen in one of our major stations in 19 the area. You need the ability to provide 20 alternative means to move around. We also 21 believe you need access to the east side of 22 Manhattan. 23 We also believe that it doesn't make 24 a lot of sense to have a one train trip out to 25 Queens to bring the train out there to be 75 1 serviced or stored. It also doesn't make a lot 2 of sense to store the train in Manhattan with the 3 expense of real estate we have, so we've come up 4 with a loop proposal that we would like to 5 present to you at your convenience, and for 6 others to consider. 7 And we will be presenting it as part 8 of the draft environmental impact statement, and 9 could provide for most people in New Jersey that 10 have access to rail, a one seat ride not only to 11 Penn Station but possibly to the East Side, to 12 Rockefellar Center, and to the expected 13 development on the West Side and then perhaps 14 even back to New Jersey again, so again we think 15 it's an exciting opportunity. 16 We look forward to the opportunity 17 to work with New Jersey Transit. They're scoping 18 process specifically allows for consideration of 19 this idea, so we look forward and we thank you 20 again and ask the State Planning Commission to 21 take into consideration that concept. Thank you. 22 MS. BYERS: Thank you very much, 23 Tom. That is indeed something we will be 24 considering. Any other questions, comments? Mr. 25 Roberts, thank you very much. That was a great 76 1 presentation. We really appreciate that you came 2 here today. 3 MR. ROBERTS: You're welcome. Thank 4 you very much for having me. 5 MS. BYERS: Now we'll move on to 6 commissioner reports. I'll start with you, 7 Lauren. 8 MR. MOORE: I just wanted to mention 9 you hear a lot about incentives, and as many of 10 you know, the governor recently signed amendments 11 to the business incentive program, and one of the 12 amendments to that program provided for higher 13 grant awards for projects that promote Smart 14 Growth and promote the state development and 15 redevelopment plan. 16 Of course we're excited about that 17 at Commerce, and Secretary Watley, cochair to the 18 committee, helped foster the amendments and 19 looked at different amendments through the 20 program, and we're excited about that because 21 that is a powerful tool for us when we're working 22 to attract businesses to the state and can help 23 us target Smart Growth areas. 24 MR. LEVINE: Nothing. 25 MS. BYERS: Curtis? 77 1 MR. FISHER: I would be neglectful 2 if I didn't mention that we announced on Saturday 3 the creation of the Highland Task Force. The 4 governor signed an executive order directing the 5 creation of the task force consisting of five 6 commissioners from his cabinet as well as members 7 of local officials and other interested parties. 8 So that was really exciting, and I 9 think that it will really focus on open space and 10 needed regulation and planning for that critical 11 area which is recognized as a special resource 12 area in the State Plan, so we're really excited 13 about that and working with the two chairs from 14 DCA and DEP. 15 MR. ESKILSON: Question on that if 16 you don't mind. I just wondered what the 17 relationship of that effort is to this, 18 particularly now that we're coming on cross 19 acceptance and we have yet another layer, not 20 that this is not a positive outcome and something 21 that many of us have been looking for a long 22 time, but I think it's important that we 23 establish a relationship between that initiative 24 and this. 25 Depending on how you draw the line, 78 1 it appears to me that roughly one sixth of the 2 municipalities in the state are located within 3 the Highlands region. Those municipalities and 4 their counties will be involved with cross 5 acceptance. They're going to be involved in 6 that. I think they, and we need to know the 7 relationship, so that we're not working across 8 purposes, and that we all are on the same page. 9 It seems to me that it is more 10 critically important now that we have the state 11 agencies cross acceptance with the State Plan, 12 that there is some official relationship, 13 procedural or otherwise, established between that 14 group's efforts and this group's efforts and the 15 cross acceptance process, and the regional 16 planning process that is going on located in the 17 Highlands, so we can say to those counties here 18 is what this process is doing. 19 We're not changing rules. They're 20 still acting under the State Plan guidelines, and 21 when that process is over, we're not going to 22 throw you a curve ball. I think it's important 23 that we establish that early on. 24 MR. FISHER: I'll take my best shot. 25 I think that the fact that five commissioners, 79 1 and including Michelle Byers, who sit on the task 2 force will insure that their questions are 3 answered as well as the executive orders. 4 Specifically, notes the need for public input the 5 coordination with the five county groups as well 6 as all and holding public hearings specifically. 7 We hope that those hearings will 8 start early and end late in terms of insuring 9 that everyone gets heard and involved in the 10 process, which we think is incredibly important; 11 and you know what all the public, in terms of the 12 drinking water resources as well as you mentioned 13 the people who live in the Highlands need to be 14 represented, so I think we're very cognizant of 15 that. 16 MS. BYERS: The only thing I would 17 add to that, John, is that the task force is set 18 up to do this in a very quick time frame. It is 19 180 days, so this is not a long drawn out 20 process with the idea of coming back with 21 recommendations to following up with the special 22 resource area recognition, so I would envision 23 that we could talk more about this. 24 But I would envision that whatever 25 the task force comes up with in terms of 80 1 recommendations would go to the governor, to the 2 agencies, to the commission and it would all get 3 wrapped into any plan endorsement applications, 4 cross acceptance discussions that it will just be 5 an additive and complimentary initiative rather 6 than something that would be in conflict or any 7 sort of confusion. 8 MR. CURTIS: And I would have to add 9 Bill Harrison doing the presentation on the whole 10 process is obviously also going to be working. 11 MS. BYERS: The fact that we have 12 the Highlands task force staffing within the 13 Office of Smart Growth gives us a technical cross 14 over that happens immediately, so I think that 15 also will be helpful. It's even easier in that 16 it's housed in one person. 17 MR. HARRISON: The timing is really 18 designed that everything should fit together. 19 The executive order calls for 180 days which will 20 be large. That will be just after the state 21 planning rules take effect. It will be at the 22 start of the cross acceptance process, we will be 23 starting the plan endorsement process, formally 24 starting, so everything should be meshing 25 together at the same time. 81 1 MR. ESKILSON: So the 2 recommendations could be included or part of the 3 preliminary state draft plan, so that it could be 4 cross accepted. I would suggest it should be. 5 MR. HARRISON: The two activities 6 will be going on, and we should be able to 7 coordinate those. 8 MR. ESKILSON: March is the date 9 they should converge at March. I don't know what 10 we have to do to delay the release of the draft 11 plan, but we ought to wait until this is done so 12 we have one document, one plan, and one cross 13 acceptance effort going on and we're not doing 14 two things at once. 15 MR. HARRISON: I think we can 16 coordinate what the task force is doing so any 17 recommendations that should be reflected in the 18 preliminary plan get done in a timely fashion for 19 that to happen. 20 MR. FISHER: I'm glad my report was 21 thought of so much. 22 MS. BYERS: Marge? 23 MR. DELLA VECCHIA: I just wanted to 24 make note that tomorrow begins Governor 25 McGreavy's conference on housing. It is 82 1 coordinated amongst the housing mortgage and 2 finance agency, Department of Community Affairs, 3 and of course it's a great event. It's two days 4 in Atlantic City. 5 It's Tuesday and Wednesday of this 6 week, and I would encourage anybody who is not 7 already aware of it or signed up, to enroll and 8 come on down to Atlantic City to join us in our 9 housing conference. It's really quite 10 informative. Another thing I wanted to say is 11 I've heard a lot of discussion about interagency 12 coordination which I think from the start of this 13 administration, particularly from Commissioner 14 Levin, is really a guiding principal, and that we 15 have a lot of our own meetings. 16 We have done some coordination 17 amongst the players of the State Planning 18 Commission as well to make sure that when we're 19 working together, we are all moving in the same 20 direction for Smart Growth and towards results 21 that will be positive that will send you off and 22 let you work for a while somewhere, and come back 23 and get a great big oh, no, sorry. 24 So I think what we'd like to do is 25 just continue with Rich's report, which I think 83 1 was great; and Lauren brought it up today as well 2 and I will too that coordination among the 3 agencies has really taken on a huge new shape and 4 there are many examples of it, even so much as 5 the Office of Smart Growth is now reviewing 6 requests for office space from the Department of 7 Treasury. 8 So that anybody who is looking for 9 office space, we can at least bring it through 10 the Smart Growth initiatives to say let's try to 11 work with what we have already, office and 12 parking and rail and transportation so that we're 13 not moving forward to do the kinds of development 14 that we don't want. 15 So I think it's important that we 16 continue to talk about that because I think 17 sometimes that has gotten lost a bit, and I think 18 that is a huge accomplishment for the many 19 different agencies. 20 MS. BYERS: Thank you. John? 21 MR. ESKILSON: Nothing more. 22 MS. BYERS: Joanna? 23 MS. SAMSON: Nothing. 24 MS. BYERS: Edward? 25 MR. MCKENNA: Nothing. 84 1 MS. BYERS: Brent? 2 MR. BARNES: I have three items. 3 One and-a-half of them have already been 4 reported. I wanted to follow up on the parking 5 lot question that was asked earlier. We released 6 back on September 12th our 2003 parking lot 7 report to the New Jersey Legislature, and our 8 commissioner's office or the communications 9 office can provide copies of that. It is a news 10 release, and there is some more detail on our web 11 site. 12 More importantly, and perhaps more 13 timely, the Blue Ribbon Commission has started 14 its series of public hearings. The first will be 15 this evening actually in Vineland and then in 16 Cherry Hill on October 7th, the NJTPA offices in 17 Newark on October 20th, and at Rutgers Law School 18 in New Brunswick on October 22nd. There is 19 information on our web site and a lot more detail 20 there. That's all. 21 MS. BYERS: Thank you. David 22 Fisher. 23 MR. FISHER: I just have a couple of 24 quick items to follow up on Marge's comment. 25 Actually, I wanted to thank Natalie and Fran 85 1 Hoffman on working with our company on a 2 redevelopment project, and I guess furthering the 3 interagency coordination you spoke about with 4 respect to issues that enveloped both DEP, 5 Commerce, Treasury, and on a number of 6 brownfields environmental remediation issues as 7 well as potential funding opportunities, so they 8 were very helpful and I think will continue to 9 be. 10 But I brought up, I think at the 11 last Plan Implementation Committee meeting, a 12 concern I had over brownfields, and I'd like to 13 bring that back at some point to the group just 14 because I think there may be the need for 15 improvements in order to help assist 16 revitalization and efforts on brownfields, 17 especially when it involves a private developer, 18 cleaning up a site and trying to limit their 19 future exposure to off site contamination or 20 natural resource damages that were not part of 21 their responsibility being an innocent purchaser. 22 One follow up on transportation. I 23 believe, and maybe you can help me out, there 24 were recent changes either an adoption of the 25 access regulations governing access to safe 86 1 highways that kind of culminated a long process 2 of dealing with comments from engineers and the 3 regulated community in terms of the level of 4 service along state highways. 5 And I don't know that much about it, 6 but I've heard that when additional development 7 is encountered, especially in already developed 8 areas where it would impact the level of service 9 at an existing intersection on a state highway, 10 and degraded below level C, that the department 11 may not be inclined to issue an access permit. 12 And I'm just concerned if that's the 13 case, how that might impact developing on already 14 developed areas, and the State Plan has such a 15 focus on enhancing and promoting development in 16 already built areas, I don't know whether you 17 have anything right now to say about that, but if 18 you could look into it, I'd appreciate it. 19 MR. BARNES: Well, a very brief 20 answer, I'm not conversing any details. I will 21 have to get back to you on that, but my 22 understanding is that we've just adopted some 23 technical changes, some technical directions, if 24 you will, to the access code. I do know that we 25 are in the very early stages of a comprehensive 87 1 look at access management, and the code, access 2 management plans, and all of the processes that 3 we use to approve those permits and plans, and 4 that will be unrolling over the next 12 to 18 5 months, and we certainly welcome your input and 6 the commissioner's input. 7 MR. FISHER: I appreciate that. 8 Maybe over the next month or so, if you could 9 summarize or someone from the department could 10 help either the planning commission level or 11 through the Office of Smart Growth, just make the 12 commissioners more aware of any potential impact 13 those regulations may have on our ability to 14 promote growth in already built areas. 15 MS. MURRAY: We are encouraging 16 access management plans as part of the plan 17 endorsement process, so that those issues can be 18 addressed before they arise on an individual 19 basis. 20 MR. FISHER: Just lastly, actually 21 a follow up on the Highlands discussion and 22 Affordable Housing because it was raised by a 23 couple of people today. As we all know, COAH 24 raised a new proposal for Affordable Housing 25 regulations. There were a few of us were talking 88 1 about this before the hearing since the initial 2 announcement and the flurry of press releases 3 that came out immediately thereafter, there 4 hasn't been much more discussion about it. 5 Since we're going out, you know, 6 into cross acceptance, certainly that will be a 7 topic on the agenda for towns and counties and 8 how to address their future Affordable Housing 9 needs. We may need some sort of a briefing from 10 the department and staff in terms of what the 11 implications of that are. I think it's critical, 12 and they are, in a way, a sister agency of ours 13 that comes right out of our statute, so I think 14 we would appreciate that. 15 MS. BYERS: I think that would be a 16 really helpful presentation to have before the 17 planning hearing. 18 MS. MURRAY: We actually, as part of 19 looking over the cross acceptance and plan 20 endorsement schedule, have been trying to 21 determine other presentations we can give to you 22 so that you'll have good information on the 23 changes that have occurred and the different 24 agencies, so this would fall in it. 25 MR. FISHER: Thank you. 89 1 MS. BYERS: Monique. 2 MS. PURCELL: I just wanted to say, 3 as most of you know, we released the draft Smart 4 Growth plan back in June, and we have received 5 quite a bit of comments and we want to thank 6 everyone who has commented, sister agencies, 7 organizations, counties. It's been a really 8 productive and positive process, and we're now in 9 the midst of going through those comments, and 10 will incorporate a lot of those comments into 11 another draft which we hope to have complete by 12 no later than the end of this year. 13 So it's really been an eye opening 14 process, and we're really, really pleased with 15 the feedback we've gotten, and we're also looking 16 now as how we're going to partner with 17 organizations and other agencies on implementing 18 the objectives, so I just wanted to mention that. 19 MS. BYERS: Thanks, Monique. The 20 only comment I'd like to make is to say that as a 21 long standing advocate for the Highlands, and I'm 22 the chair on the Highlands Coalition, and I was 23 on the commission when they recognized the 24 Highlands as an area of special resources, that I 25 am just delighted that the governor has taken the 90 1 action of establishing the task force and 2 outlining that various steps that need to be 3 taken and recommendations that are needed. 4 And I'm delighted that the executive 5 order reference, the five county coalition that's 6 been working out in the Highlands region, to 7 acknowledge their efforts and encourage them to 8 be part of the process. I think it is just great 9 that the governor recognized how important this 10 region is and the water supply for the whole 11 northern part of the state. 12 That's just critical to the future 13 of the state, so I just wanted to, for the 14 record, wearing my Highlands hat, just say how 15 absolutely delighted I am and know the members of 16 the coalition feel the same way. Thank you. 17 Okay. Any other comments from the 18 commission. We have a public comment here now, 19 so any members of the public that would like to 20 speak, you're welcome to come up. Well, is 21 there a motion for adjournment? 22 MR. FISHER: So moved. 23 MR. BARNES: Second. 24 MS. BARNES: Thank you all very 25 much. 91 1 (Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2 11:27 a.m.) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 92 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 4 5 6 7 I, LAUREN BUTTERFIELD (License No. XIO2031), 8 a Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public 9 of the State of New Jersey, do hereby certify the 10 foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript of 11 my original stenographic notes taken at the time 12 and place hereinbefore set forth. 13 14 15 16 17 ______________________________ 18 LAUREN BUTTERFIELD, CSR, RPR 19 20 21 Dated: October 2, 2003. 22 23 24 25